Too Many Board Manufactuers Hurts Skimboarding

[TheDL]

Tto many board manufacturers is a problem.

At first glance this might not seem like a big deal, in fact many people might (especially those behind new small companies) will argue to no end that it's a good thing, but for the over all long term development of the sport it's a problem. Currently the number of companies is probably sustainable, but if the numbers continue to increase it will become serious.

Manufacturing is not a profitable business... sure you can make money, but it's not a road to riches by any stretch of the imagination.

The current big three skim manufacturers are basically floating the entire industry and they are barley keeping their heads above water. This stands is stark contrast to the surfing industry where there are hundreds of local shapers, some more profitable than others, but they aren't what's keeping the surfing industry alive. Its the Quiksilvers, Blillabongs and Volcoms that fuel the surfing industry. You don't seen see surfboard shapers putting on WCT events and garnering international media attention for the sport, its clothing manufacturers. Without the soft goods industry surfing wouldn't be what it is today.

Skimboarding doesn't have a multi-billion dollar soft goods industry to keep it afloat, and its unlikely it ever will. Like I said, the burden of marketing the sport lies solely on the shoulders of the manufacturers and their very limited profit margins to keep things moving forwards.

An increase in the number of board manufacturers dilutes existing established manufacturers already limited profits, making it more difficult for them to reinvest in the sport, and eventually stagnating things to a point where it won't grow larger.

Realistically these new smaller companies are not having an impact on the growth or development of the sport. Because of their limited sales they are incapable of investing the necessary money back into the sport to help it... whether you want to believe it or not, "sponsoring" the next local "skimfest" "skimbash" or "skim invasion" does not equal a measurable return on the overall growth of the sport. Neither does undercutting existing manufacturers prices and sponsoring people that would otherwise be buying a board from an established manufacturer... Its easy for these small companies to do this due to their low overhead and low volume of sales, and they do it frequently.

what's a board or two you ask... it's significant to companies like Vic Exile and Zap. Skimboarding is so small to begin with that every sale counts. Initially these small companies might see a spike in their sales, but in the long run they WILL NOT be able to increase their volume of sales to a level on par with the big three. There just aren't enough skimboarders out there. All they will really accomplish is watering down the sales of the larger manufacturers who have actually been taking this sport somewhere for the last 30 years, and put serious restraints on their abilities to do so in the future. Ironically the actions taken by these small manufacturers will put the the lid on their own growth. They are relying on taking market share from the larger brands... eventually everything will even out at a point of stagnation, because the large companies will no longer be able to market meaningfully and draw new participants to the sport.

[MJ - Tides Ent.]

More companies = more supply

more supply = competitive market place (lower prices for consumer)

scarce and valuable resources such as carbon fiber, epoxy, and foam can cause price fluctuation if the resources become less available or more expensive, but all in all, high end skimboards have cost between 250-450 for as long as I can remember. You get what you pay for (board performance and the brand)

all in all, I say skim boarding needs as much support from businesses and consumers to help everyone make money, especially in an economic recession. an extra company here or there is gonna stoke the sport and get more people excited about it

[CustomKO]

revive skimboarder

[TheDL]

More companies = more supply

more supply = competitive market place (lower prices for consumer)

scarce and valuable resources such as carbon fiber, epoxy, and foam can cause price fluctuation if the resources become less available or more expensive, but all in all, high end skimboards have cost between 250-450 for as long as I can remember. You get what you pay for (board performance and the brand)

all in all, I say skim boarding needs as much support from businesses and consumers to help everyone make money, especially in an economic recession. an extra company here or there is gonna stoke the sport and get more people excited about it

That's my point, but you missed it entirely. Yes skimboarding needs as much support as possible but these small companies are incapable of reinvesting in the sport in a way that actually has a measurable result, and it limits the larger companies abilities to reinvest and promote because they are losing sales.

[Matt Adams]

The 3 board companies are the top for a reason.... if they want to stay ontop they will have to continue to grow and become better....

there's literally nothing you can do about it. Welcome to America..... it's competition, I'm sure the top 3 will be able to rise above like they always have.

[Derek Makekau]

I think skimboarding needs a reliable media source.

[jesse]

I think skimboarding needs a reliable media source.

+1

[Matt Adams]

Derek... I'm going to make out with you....

[jesse]

These small companies are incapable of reinvesting in the sport in a way that actually has a measurable result.......

whether you want to believe it or not, "sponsoring" the next local "skimfest" "skimbash" or "skim invasion" does not equal a measurable return on the overall growth of the sport

in your opinion, what constitutes "real" reinvesting in the sport?

Its easy for these small companies to do this [undercutting existing manufacturers prices] due to their low overhead and low volume of sales, and they do it frequently.

wouldn't they have much higher overhead and much lower profit margin because their variable production (and costs) are low, but their fixed costs are still the same as a big manufacturer? Or are you referencing the fact that small startup companies probably don't have the assets, in terms of equipment and land/buildings, that a bigger company might have?

[Matt Adams]

in your opinion, what constitutes "real" reinvesting in the sport?


wouldn't they have much higher overhead and much lower profit margin because their variable production (and costs) are low, but their fixed costs are still the same as a big manufacturer? Or are you referencing the fact that small startup companies probably don't have the assets, in terms of equipment and land/buildings, that a bigger company might have?

Do you need some Ice for that burn?

[jesse]

haha me or him?

[selvaskim]

too

[MJ - Tides Ent.]

I think skimboarding needs a reliable media source.

I'd say foreverskim has been pretty damn reliable since 2002

[Mapdash]

The next step: Government intervention and regulation of the skimboard industry. We knew it was coming.

srsly though DL........i understand your arguments..........but what is your point?

This occurs and has occured in 1000's of different industries throughout history. The strong will survive and will profit. The others will go under. No big surprises here.

[TheDL]

in your opinion, what constitutes "real" reinvesting in the sport?

I'd say a "real" investment in the sport is anything that draws new participants on an international level... first and foremost on that front is the athletes... Companies like Vic Exile and Zap pay their athletes, THE BEST ATHLETES, to promote the sport and spread it around the world. This ties into things like the UST, Companies spend their money, and alot of it to send their athletes to all the contests so that the public can see the sport performed on the highest level. The subsequent videos that were produced and funded by the big three from these contests is also a prime example...

Also along those lines... companies like exile sinking untold amounts of money [edit: AND TIME] into video projects, both for sale on DVD and released for free on the internet in the form of their mini movies draw great attention to the sport bringing more people into the fold... These things, like the UST videos, showcase the sport to the world at the highest levels. I could go on but meh, whatever. I hope you get the point.

wouldn't they have much higher overhead and much lower profit margin because their variable production (and costs) are low, but their fixed costs are still the same as a big manufacturer? Or are you referencing the fact that small startup companies probably don't have the assets, in terms of equipment and land/buildings, that a bigger company might have?

Smaller manufactures are producing boards in a more one off style fashion, yes the materials cost the same, but they don't have a large factory full of employees to pay, they don't have a team to pay and for that reason they can sell their boards for cheaper.

[jesse]

Ok, that's what I thought you meant...

I agree with both DL and Mapdash to an extent. It seems like the point of this thread is just to kind of make skimmers aware that to really help the sport grow, reinvesting in the big companies will have a larger big-picture effect for the growth of the sport. HOWEVER, I think it's pretty clear that Exile is the leader in the forward motion and progress of the sport at this time, however 10 years ago, where were they? Who knows if Apex or Square (or some company that hasn't even been started yet), will be the next company to pick up the torch and really push to develope the sport more. Exile, too, was a small company producing in a "one off style" not too long ago.

I don't really ever see the situation you described taking place; that there would be more and more companies starting up, causing profits to spread so thin that there isn't money to reinvest in the sport. Product differentiation and better marketing will have to win out, just like it has in every other industry.

[Derek Makekau]

i'll let apex and square know that david levin said to close up shop

[TheDL]

i'll let apex and square know that david levin said to close up shop

Jesus christ you're a fracking child.

[Matt Adams]

Jesus christ you're a fracking child.

now that I agree with...he's like a small sexy boy

[Derek Makekau]

haha come on dave...both of my posts in this thread were hilarious.

[Aaron Peluso]

I really fear that this is the direction we are headed with skimboarding despite previous efforts to bring this fact to people's attention.

Like I have said many times before, skimboarding needs a centralized manufacturing base more akin to snowboarding than to surfing. If skimboarding follows in surfing's footsteps from a manufacturing perspective, it will effectively be the nail in the coffin of professional skimboarding possibly forever. It's that serious.

New/Local companies are able to market effectively for a time by selling direct at lower prices (rather than through shops) and developing personal relationships with local skimboarders. They throw around free product to the customers of other companies, with the small amounts of 'profits' that they do generate. History has shown that three years later, they move on and go get a real job and/or customers realize that the product is sub-par.

The net effect on skimboarding is the major companies were deprived of the sales which could have funded some great things in the sport. No one makes any money, and skimboarding loses.

The whole cycle is futile and pointless, and thats what frustrates me about it.

None of this is directed from a sense of self preservation or in defense of Exile. If Exile goes out of business tomorrow I will make far more money in 2010 by focussing my energies into actual profitable endeavours rather than skimboarding. Steve, Hank, Paulo, Domke and our other 45 team riders as well as more than a dozen events videos and probably the concept of the travelling professional skimboarder would ALL be shit out of luck. Stimulus 2 would never get made, and countless other good things that exile does in skimboaridng would never happen. For instance, Derek expressed to me that one major manufacturer going out of business would probably be the end of FSM, just for example. Those are all the things I am really concerned about.

Without exile pushing ahead, other majors would also feel less inclined to push forward with their marketing budgets and skimboarding would likely stangante and then contract rather substantially as it took on the image as "that thing that was hot in 2005".

And for what?

I see a lot of joking going on above. Matt, would Wunderkind be happening without Exile's support? Derek, would FSM last long wihout Exile? Would it have even gotten to this point? Will Zap and Vic continue advertising if we are out? Will they up their advertising? Or will skimboarding go mag-less?

Its not hypothetical.

People who genuinley love this sport are hurting it. If you ask me they should wake up and see their actions for what they are.

And yes, it is a free country.

[Mapdash]

It seems like the point of this thread is just to kind of make skimmers aware that to really help the sport grow, reinvesting in the big companies will have a larger big-picture effect for the growth of the sport.

Is that the point of this thread? If it is that is fine, and i guess informing people about that is ok.

At the same time though......why the hell should the fundamentals of business and free enterprise not apply to this industry just like they do all the others?

How is this any different then the home grown herbal tea business, or the bird house business, or any of the 1000's small businesses across the country?

Why should their be an exception for this industry, DL?

MORE IMPORTANTLY............what do you suggest be done about it??????????



AP---what should be done then? What can be done?

[Derek Makekau]

Derek, would FSM last long wihout Exile? Would it have even gotten to this point? Will Zap and Vic continue advertising if we are out? Will they up their advertising? Or will skimboarding go mag-less?

well you already answered that question in your post, quoting what i said. i'm fairly certain that if any of the big three went out of business it would completely destroy foreverskim...i think that the remaining companies would have to refocus their efforts and a marketing budget would more than likely be the first thing to go (whether this is really the smart move or not) which would mean no more advertising, which would mean the end of the already small income advertising generates, which would mean no more FSM.

so i see the seriousness of that potential situation...but how long can i resist the temptation to make lil jokes with dave? i mean cmon.

[Aaron Peluso]

Exile, too, was a small company producing in a "one off style" not too long ago.

Exile was never a small one off type of company. Our sales in 2003 were pretty similar to our sales in 2008.

I don't really ever see the situation you described taking place; that there would be more and more companies starting up, causing profits to spread so thin that there isn't money to reinvest in the sport. Product differentiation and better marketing will have to win out, just like it has in every other industry.

Then you are short sighted and ignorant. There is just no other way to say it. Better marketing doesnt have to do anything. And it hasnt always worked in every other industry either.

[Teddy Parker]

I think what's helping skimboarding now is a mainstream rider, like Paulo Prietto, going out and getting interest of things beyond skimboarding. Like Dave said, soft goods companies and other companies that hold the real money in the business are what make a sport grow. Riders like Paulo are getting that done, with a little spot on Etnies, and I think Bill Bryan and crew got some attention from ...LOST. That's important. Keeping in mind I don't know SHIT about business, the industry, money, I'm a retard. BUT, I understand that surfing and skateboarding aren't the huge money makers they are because of people making boards in their garage... BUT, where did those sports start?

Skimboarding isn't nearly at the stage those companies are so... what I am trying to say is, board companies didn't start off mainstream just like everything has to start small to build up... maybe within time the small skim companies won't be small companies... but yeah, I want Exile and Zap to push the sport. I want skimboarding to become a money-making event but I don't think the "big three" should use small companies as an excuse for less growth, not that they are! especially in these hard times... we can't expect to be making any money... frack it, i'm dumb. i just like skimboarding. there's my argument.

[Matt Adams]

I just don't see a way for it to change... how do we draw a line in the sand and say you're hurting us and you're not. I think the only way to overcome is to beat our your competitors. I didn't understand that there was a serious problem with the small companies....

There's nothing easy in this sport.

[Aaron Peluso]

Its not an excuse Teddy.

I do know something about this business and I am telling you how it is from a learned perspective. And thats really all that can be done.

To answer your question Mapdash, I am not sure that anything can be done except to educate and inform. This goes for both the consumer and the manufacturer.

Without fail, I truly believe that the owners of every single skimboard mfg company truly love this sport. In almost all cases, thats the only reason they have a manufacturing company in the first place. $$$'s are pretty much never the motivation, and they shouldnt be, cause nobody makes any. My point is that if they really love this sport they should either go for it 100% and join the top tier manufacturers, or concentrate their efforts elsewhere in skimboarding. There are lots of ways to be involved in the sport without owning a manufacturing company that could be far more helpful to the sport as well as more profitable. How about a skimboard travel business similar to surf camp organizations? how about a real balls to the wall skim clothing company? It took me 15 seconds to think of those two ideas which are both better in all respects than "another mfg company".

Similarly, I notice a lot of consumers who are intent on "buying local". I literally cannot think of a worse metric upon which to base a purchase. The geography of the manufacturer? Shape, Quality, Skim Support and price are the things that should matter. Buying local for the sake of buying local hurts skimboarding. This is a case of good intentions being misplaced. If people are aware of the effect, maybe they will make better informed decisions. Maybe not.

We will see.

Jesse and Teddy - you both bring up the point of every company starts somewhere and maybe one of the small companies of today will grow into a big company in a few years. Sure, maybe. History says otherwise however.

Since 1987 not a single major company has "slowly grown" into a major company. Exile is the only company I can think of that has done it at all since 87, and if you think that growth was slow then you weren't a skimboarder in 2002-2003. Since 87 there have been no fewer than 50 startup brands. The vast majority don't exist today. Of the ones that do, almost all are have already peaked and are now well off their highs, the only exception being a handful of brands that are two years old or less.

[TheDL]

I really fear that this is the direction we are headed with skimboarding despite previous efforts to bring this fact to people's attention.

what's unfortunate is that people in this industry are to short sided to see beyond their own self contrived view that you as a skimboard company owner are only looking out for yourself when you say something like that...

I know that couldn't be further from the truth... I know you know you need Victoria and Zap to be successful for Exile to be the best it can be, just as much as they need you to the same end, whether they know it or not.

- Another thing I didn't bring up originally, but I was reminded of in a private message conversation with a forum user in discussion of this topic are new companies selling their boards direct as a means of cutting costs. This not only Hurts the big three, it also dings established shops... and guess what, the shops are second largest contributors to the well being of this industry.

Overall its just a bad situation.

[jesse]

Exile was never a small one off type of company. Our sales in 2003 were pretty similar to our sales in 2008.Then you are short sighted and ignorant. There is just no other way to say it. Better marketing doesnt have to do anything. And it hasnt always worked in every other industry either.

haha Ok, so I AM short-sighted and ignorant (and also very young with a lot to learn about skimboarding, as well as business in general). I was wrong in assuming Exile started off small, and I'm shocked to hear that your sales have been relatively stagnant over that time period. BUT, I still feel like kids buy Vics because they see ads in FSM, they see Bill Bryan riding one, and they hear word from others that they're quality boards. Kids buy Exiles because they've seen Bearded or heard about Paulo and associate these things with Exile. Wouldn't that still count as a company's marketing? If the big three haven't become who they are through superior marketing and a better product, how have they?

EDIT:

Better marketing doesnt have to do anything.

Without exile pushing ahead, other majors would also feel less inclined to push forward with their marketing budgets and skimboarding would likely stangante and then contract rather substantially

huh?

[Aaron Peluso]

If the big three haven't become who they are through superior marketing and a better product, how have they?

Vic started the skim manufacturing business and zap is 25 years old. That's how they became the big guys. Exile did it by leveraging pent up demand for boards that were known and respected for over a decade and investing a shit ton of cash with no regard for personal profit whatsoever over the course of at least the first decade. And really, exile looks like a lot more of a big guy than it really is. We divert far more percentage wise back into the sport... and hence look bigger than we actually are. Our gross sales are certainly a small fraction of Vic and Zap.

You quoted two things that have nothing to do with each other. One is about marketing pushing one brand over another, the other is about the disappearance of a major company. Huh?

To reiterate, better marketing doesnt have to do anything. Yes. If 80 local skim mfg's pop up tomorrow exile is closing up shop. It doesnt matter how good our marketing is. Get it?

Furthermore, every single additional manufacturer decreases every existing manufacturers ability to spend marketing dollars. They also dont replace it with marketing dollars of their own. Thereby hurting the sport. Thats the entire point. Get it?

If there are 80 mfg's with the same number of skimboarders there will be a whole lot less money going into the sport and a whole lot more money going into rent on 80 factories spread across the globe. Same amount of total sales, no profit, no marketing, no sport.

Get it?

[jesse]

Ya I've noticed that Exile does tend to look bigger than they may be to those very involved in the sport, mostly because a lot of skimmers (myself included) focus mostly on the sales of high end boards, because that's the end of the sport we're involved in.

I have no facts, but I would guess that Zap sells a substantially larger number of Bullets and Wedges than Comps or Pro-Model boards


EDIT: regarding my "question"...... yup, makes sense now. thanks

[Mmm... Pasta]

Fear mongering fear mongering...
Stimulus 2 would never get made.

Do we have an expected date here?
Edit: Changed my mind.
Also, I think the Zap guys need to pick up a team rider or two out here. Hint Read hint.

[SteveTaylor]

Other LARGE or small companies won't feel the need to advertise/market as much if other LARGE companies are not advertising.

-this was in regards to Jesse's last "huh" earlier. You guys are too on it today. I'll get back to sending boards out. My bad...

[ejb]

tl;dr

[Adam Hayward]

I think skimboarding needs a reliable media source.

i lol'd so loud i think all of maranduba heard me