Cnn

[Icej]

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is debating with Michael Moore about his movie. Dr. Gupta claims Moore has misleading facts and used improper sources. It is a good interview because Moore can't take criticism and claims CNN are liars.

[veniceskim4]

I just turned it on. Micheal Moores an arrogant asshole.

[Dzan]

Gupta is pretty lame, here imo. Moore clearly cites all his stuff on his website, Gupta isn't citing his stuff anywhere, as far as I know.

[Daniel N]

I just turned it on. Micheal Moores an arrogant asshole.

+1

[Icej]

Gupta is pretty lame, here imo. Moore clearly cites all his stuff on his website, Gupta isn't citing his stuff anywhere, as far as I know.

He cited where he got the core figures, from the World Health Org. If you didn't see the peice before they started debating, you might think it is one sided.

[RavesIsBack]

I watched the trailer for Sicko and some of the things they said are straight up bullshit, because I just finished taking a class on Health Economics and have the book that talks about his bullshit. I mean, its not "false" but its definitely skewing the facts.

[Dzan]

He cited where he got the core figures, from the World Health Org. If you didn't see the peice before they started debating, you might think it is one sided.

Michael Moore got his from there too, so what?

I don't really see what they are debating as relevant at all. Whether the US is ranked #37 or #38 is irrelevant and a split hair, since the real issue is, "why aren't we #1?" It should be more than clear to anyone that universal healthcare is a far superior system to our current "system" and I don't think a rational person could say that out system provides better medical care for the country.

This really reminds me of the abortion debate. People care so much, yet abortion isn't going away, it just won't happen. Universal health care is inevitable, it's going to happen, and its only a matter of how many people do we want to let die before we do.

[RavesIsBack]

I am a rational person and I think that our healthcare system is fine. Those that cannot afford healthcare can get it for free, while those that can afford it are able to purchase it or given it by their employers. Why arent we #1? easy, we have the most lazy people in the world due to many reasons, and also the most unhealthy eating habits in the world. That leads to obesity and lots of money being spent on healthcare.

Inevitable? hardly. so we can raise taxes, great people will love that. Realism just doesnt enter your mind does it? the amount of money necessary to create a universal healthcare system and wean off privatized healthcare would cost an absurd amount.

We have the best doctors in the world and quality comes at a price. I am more than willing to pay for my healthcare, but not yours.

[Icej]

The debate was about his film misleading people. No system is free, and no system is perfect. My roommate works in the health care field. He admits our system is perfect, but either is Canada's or England's.

A good point is that a lot of Canadians will get their free health care, but 20% will pay out of pocket for a specialist. Some even go to the United States. I know I would rather pay more to get a specific thing done by a top professional instead of a mediocre person.

I don't have the answer to the problem, and currently I don't know of one.

[Dzan]

The debate was about his film misleading people. No system is free, and no system is perfect. My roommate works in the health care field. He admits our system is perfect, but either is Canada's or England's.

A good point is that a lot of Canadians will get their free health care, but 20% will pay out of pocket for a specialist. Some even go to the United States. I know I would rather pay more to get a specific thing done by a top professional instead of a mediocre person.

I don't have the answer to the problem, and currently I don't know of one.

There isn't a perfect answer, but there is a better answer.

[RavesIsBack]

There isn't a perfect answer, but there is a better answer.

and that answer is NOT universal healthcare

[Icej]

Of course there is a better answer, but I don't think it currently exists. Every system has it flaws. If you want to examine certain parts of our healthcare vs. others you can find things that are better and worse. You can't switch one flawed system for another.

[RavesIsBack]

Of course there is a better answer, but I don't think it currently exists. Every system has it flaws. If you want to examine certain parts of our healthcare vs. others you can find things that are better and worse. You can't switch one flawed system for another.

where have you been my entire life? If i wasnt so opposed to gay marriage I would marry Peluso right now, and you. I mean if i were gay, might as well be a gay polygamist.

[Dzan]

I am a rational person and I think that our healthcare system is fine. Those that cannot afford healthcare can get it for free, while those that can afford it are able to purchase it or given it by their employers. Why arent we #1? easy, we have the most lazy people in the world due to many reasons, and also the most unhealthy eating habits in the world. That leads to obesity and lots of money being spent on healthcare.

Inevitable? hardly. so we can raise taxes, great people will love that. Realism just doesnt enter your mind does it? the amount of money necessary to create a universal healthcare system and wean off privatized healthcare would cost an absurd amount.

We have the best doctors in the world and quality comes at a price. I am more than willing to pay for my healthcare, but not yours.

We have the most lazy people in the world? Wrong. Americans work more hours per year than any other country.

Americans are less obese than Britons last time we had that debate.

Lot's of things cost an absurd amount of money. We can find endless money to hire soldiers, but we can't find the money to hire doctors?

Most people can't afford to pay for their healthcare. Even people with insurance. I have great insurance. If most "insured" people got cancer or something else serious they would either get dropped, or they wouldn't be able to afford the deductibles. Useless.

[Dzan]

Of course there is a better answer, but I don't think it currently exists. Every system has it flaws.

That's a non-sequitor. Thats like saying, "every baseball team has flaws" but then saying that there isn't a best team.

[Icej]

Ok. We are now talking about health care reform. You are, I believe, for Universal Health care. If we are going to reform our health care why would you install one that you know has problems? A smarter thing would be to do a Hybrid of the current systems and take the things that are right.

[RavesIsBack]

We have the most lazy people in the world? Wrong. Americans work more hours per year than any other country.

Americans are less obese than Britons last time we had that debate.

Lot's of things cost an absurd amount of money. We can find endless money to hire soldiers, but we can't find the money to hire doctors?

Most people can't afford to pay for their healthcare. Even people with insurance. I have great insurance. If most "insured" people got cancer or something else serious they would either get dropped, or they wouldn't be able to afford the deductibles. Useless.

Work, in sedentary jobs with machines that do most of the actual work. Try again Dzan, quit looking so superficially at things and you might actually make some sense. 8 Hours in a desk chair, 8 hours on the couch, 8 hours sleeping. You have to be kidding me if you believe that we arent lazy, because you are supposed to have at least 30 minutes of exercise a day and people still dont do that.

Americans are much more likely to be obese (31.3 versus 23 percent). First link I got when I typed America vs UK obesity into google

So your argument is not about healthcare its about redistributing money? Ok libby, try to stay on point. Find a way to keep the spending where it is and then add the money necessary and you cant. I currently think our defense spending is about where it needs to be.

I have great health care in which my family has received over 50k in benefits from. NO complaints, reasonable deductibles. Medicare does great work, so again free healthcare. But hey, thats life. But you honestly think Universal healthcare would have no problem ever in dealing with people with cancer. I want to live in that fantasy world that you do. NAH, i prefer the real one.

[Dzan]

I have great health care in which my family has received over 50k in benefits from. NO complaints, reasonable deductibles. Medicare does great work, so again free healthcare. But hey, thats life. But you honestly think Universal healthcare would have no problem ever in dealing with people with cancer. I want to live in that fantasy world that you do. NAH, i prefer the real one.

So every other industrialized country has it wrong, and we are right? No one in those other countries is advocating a change to our system, thats for sure. Even the conservatives in Britain, France and Canada support universal healthcare, it isn't even a two sided issue anywhere but here.

I'd prefer to live in a world where my health and welfare is decided by what is best for my health and welfare, not by what is best for an HMO. You call it a fantasy world, I call it the rest of the world.

[RavesIsBack]

Did I say they are wrong? Putting words in my mouth? I said "our system is fine." Why is it that you compare every other country that has different circumstances to our country? Is our country the number 1 in the world in GDP? Maybe thats how things work for us. They dont deal with things the same way we do, nor would I tell any other country to do things the way we did.

Dzan, if the system is so great everywhere else, by all means have a Canadian doctor, British doctor, Indian doctor do work on you. I on the other hand love our American doctors and would gladly pay what I have to pay to get that superior service. The rest of the world does what they want, they arent the best either. I would love to have universal healthcare, if it didnt raise my taxes, if it didnt cost a dime, and if it didnt lead to the fall of my nation's economy. Do that, and you got yourself a deal, I am just more realistic.

[autonomous]

In a capitalist society some win and some loose. thats the way the system works. The government has a obligation to provide health care to those doing the labor in this country..you know the real work. It’s a basic right. As someone who is poor and was born into a working class family in the ghetto (poor black neighborhood) I shouldn’t be punished for my parent’s lack of accomplishments. You’re Jesus land doesn’t seem very moral to me.

[doug]

In a capitalist society some win and some loose. thats the way the system works. The government has a obligation to provide health care to those doing the labor in this country..you know the real work. It’s a basic right. As someone who is poor and was born into a working class family in the ghetto (poor black neighborhood) I shouldn’t be punished for my parent’s lack of accomplishments. You’re Jesus land doesn’t seem very moral to me.

Oh jesus christ, another whiny black kid being held down by the big bad white man. There are so many methods in place for the less fortunate to get out of their situations, saying something like this just makes you look like a tool.

You're right, it's not fair that you are punished by your parent's lack of accomplishments. It's your parents that did the punishing here though, not the government. As raves already said, there IS such a thing as free health care in this country.

[RavesIsBack]

In a capitalist society some win and some loose. thats the way the system works. The government has a obligation to provide health care to those doing the labor in this country..you know the real work. It’s a basic right. As someone who is poor and was born into a working class family in the ghetto (poor black neighborhood) I shouldn’t be punished for my parent’s lack of accomplishments. You’re Jesus land doesn’t seem very moral to me.

in a realistic world, which we happen to live in, the amount of money necessary to pull such a maneuver is ridiculous. The healthcare provided to workers is fine. The government has zero obligation to give those that do nothing free services, but they do, because the government is nice like that. Obligated though? No. It is NOT a basic right. Find it in the Constitution where it says free healthcare for all then i will believe you. America society wants its people healthy and protected so it tries to provide and in fact does provide free healthcare to those that cannot afford it.

So you make all decisions based on your self only, that is pretty self-centered and the reason why you are as foolish as I say you are. I look at the bigger picture in this nation. I assure you if it were practical for the US to have universal healhcare I would be 100% behind it, but I just do not see the numbers working.

Learn to spell "lose." I am Jesus Land? so you calling me fat? I'll have you know that is not the case. Unless you meant "your" possessive Jesus land. Right? Yea I am soooo Christian I have been to church 10 times in my entire life and not once in the past 8 years. I have NO MORAL OBLIGATION to help those that DONT HELP THEMSELVES. Dont like it, tough, get a better job or move to another country. Work harder and you will get what you desire. You clearly lack the intelligence to improve so I really have no remorse for you, sorry.

[narwhal]

and DZAN sticks up for the biggest peice of shit, ever.

[RavesIsBack]

and DZAN sticks up for the biggest peice of shit, ever.

for some reason I read this post as you being surprised. are you?

[narwhal]

for some reason I read this post as you being surprised. are you?

no not at all.

I saw it coming.

[DT]

If anyone has any friend or family in the UK, then you know that universal means dispersement of fixed resources so you get more people receiving, slower/lower quality health services, regardless of your ability to pay. The mother of our best friend had to bail on the UK system after a 3 month wait for a reasonably simple procedure, and come to the US for treatment (scheduled, in and recovered in under 2 weeks).

Improvements to socialized health care, no reduction in the available private system? I'm all for it, but complete conversion to a government "managed" solution? No way. The English admitted some years back that they were looking into outsourcing some of their "free" health care to third world countries so they could continue to provide it. Not the most reassuring thing to hear. For the post office, I'll accept long lines and few contact people. For health care, I want better.

Just injecting more capitol into the system via a more costly (and don't tax me to me to pay for it), centralized system is not the solution. Start by +reducing+ the cost of health care by eliminating frivolous lawsuits, and reduce the outbound money to shareholders in the private health care and pharm industries (high compensation for doctors, who are highly skilled, highly educated people is not the problem).

It's obvious improvements can be made - they can with any complex system - but scrapping privatized medicine because some goofball puts together a movie (note my lack of the use of "documentary") that shows Cuba's system working (where people die because they can't get proper pharms), that's a bit silly.

For record, if you want to try to sandbox me (as I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions), the Libertarian label is probably much closer than either of the other two prominent parties.

(Note: this will be my first and last post in this thread)

[RavesIsBack]

solid work DT, you see my point completely

there are improvements like the medicaid system that is poor, but to fix that system is far easier than having universal healthcare.

[autonomous]

Oh jesus christ, another whiny black kid being held down by the big bad white man. There are so many methods in place for the less fortunate to get out of their situations, saying something like this just makes you look like a tool.

You're right, it's not fair that you are punished by your parent's lack of accomplishments. It's your parents that did the punishing here though, not the government. As raves already said, there IS such a thing as free health care in this country.

Who said I was black you racist frack bitch. I’m white like you, but just not a douche. Sorry to bring out you racial animosities. Health clinics aren’t free health care and if you’re talking about Medicare and Medicaid we should extend that to the general public so we can SAVE money since we pay more than any other country for health care. I’m sure you know how to d/l torrents and such with your privilege up bring so d/l sicko before you run off at the mouth. Moore leaked a copy just for you. Watch it for a good laugh like I watch bush and fox news, but don’t talk out your ass about shit you’ve never seen. The movie is not about people like with no health care, its about people with. A just society provides those who cant provide for themselves (kids). My parents work like everyone else but we don’t we’ve be thought not to value labor in this country.

[autonomous]

in a realistic world, which we happen to live in, the amount of money necessary to pull such a maneuver is ridiculous. The healthcare provided to workers is fine. The government has zero obligation to give those that do nothing free services, but they do, because the government is nice like that. Obligated though? No. It is NOT a basic right. Find it in the Constitution where it says free healthcare for all then i will believe you. America society wants its people healthy and protected so it tries to provide and in fact does provide free healthcare to those that cannot afford it.

So you make all decisions based on your self only, that is pretty self-centered and the reason why you are as foolish as I say you are. I look at the bigger picture in this nation. I assure you if it were practical for the US to have universal healhcare I would be 100% behind it, but I just do not see the numbers working.

Learn to spell "lose." I am Jesus Land? so you calling me fat? I'll have you know that is not the case. Unless you meant "your" possessive Jesus land. Right? Yea I am soooo Christian I have been to church 10 times in my entire life and not once in the past 8 years. I have NO MORAL OBLIGATION to help those that DONT HELP THEMSELVES. Dont like it, tough, get a better job or move to another country. Work harder and you will get what you desire. You clearly lack the intelligence to improve so I really have no remorse for you, sorry.

The majority of American people want universal health care 64% and we would save money by doing it. I will pull the research for you later because im doing a group project now and don’t have the time to do it now. Health is a human right…life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Glad you’re so small to jump on my typos. You might want to go read over some of yours what I didn’t seem the need to point out. You don’t live in a realistic world, rather one of truthiness. I thought you were the Christian party? Oh yeah and you are authoritarian…read over what you write you’ll see it.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...22007_poll.pdf

[doug]

Who said I was black you racist frack bitch. I’m white like you, but just not a douche. Sorry to bring out you racial animosities. Health clinics aren’t free health care and if you’re talking about Medicare and Medicaid we should extend that to the general public so we can SAVE money since we pay more than any other country for health care. I’m sure you know how to d/l torrents and such with your privilege up bring so d/l sicko before you run off at the mouth. Moore leaked a copy just for you. Watch it for a good laugh like I watch bush and fox news, but don’t talk out your ass about shit you’ve never seen. The movie is not about people like with no health care, its about people with. A just society provides those who cant provide for themselves (kids). My parents work like everyone else but we don’t we’ve be thought not to value labor in this country.

you said "poor black neighborhood" so you pretty much implied it, I am far from rascist.

[DjMattyD]

you said "poor black neighborhood" so you pretty much implied it.

I was pretty sure he was white because he said that.

[doug]

I was pretty sure he was looking for pity

[autonomous]

I was pretty sure he was looking for pity

no one is looking for pity. its just the ones that never had to over come anything are always telling other what they need to do and i find the need to clarify what i mean by ghetto because suburban white people dont have a clue what it is but love trying to imitate it. if you dont think your environment plays a major role in your opportunities in life then you just believe in truthiness.

[RavesIsBack]

The majority of American people want universal health care 64% and we would save money by doing it. I will pull the research for you later because im doing a group project now and don’t have the time to do it now. Health is a human right…life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Glad you’re so small to jump on my typos. You might want to go read over some of yours what I didn’t seem the need to point out. You don’t live in a realistic world, rather one of truthiness. I thought you were the Christian party? Oh yeah and you are authoritarian…read over what you write you’ll see it.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...22007_poll.pdf

so when does the NY TIMES represent ALL OF AMERICA? like seriously kid I hope you dont try to be anything that involves critical thought, because you just regurgitate facts and dont look deeper at the real picture. Good thing you learned from the years of education you have had.

it seems to say "life" is a human right not "health." unless you tie health to happiness in which case I am happy for free cars, so where is my free car policy? I think everyone should get a free car hell I bet a supermajority would vote for just free gas all year. ooops, did I just crush your fallacy?

small typos are different from repeated large typos like not being able to spell "lose" or not using "your" properly.

and ONCE AGAIN, look up the definition of authoritarian and you will see that I am far from that. I have plenty to disprove but its really so foolish that its almost like name calling so not even worth noting.

[RavesIsBack]

no one is looking for pity. its just the ones that never had to over come anything are always telling other what they need to do and i find the need to clarify what i mean by ghetto because suburban white people dont have a clue what it is but love trying to imitate it. if you dont think your environment plays a major role in your opportunities in life then you just believe in truthiness.

1. again, just proves you are all about YOUR SELF-INTEREST not the interest of the nation. In fact, you are saying what the NATION should do. If anything, you are the one saying what others should do.

2. just because we dont bitch about our upbringing doesnt make it easy. but feel free to assume you know everyone that disagrees with you is just rich, pompous, greedy assholes. But trust, I dont want to imitate the ghetto.

3. the only reason anyone puts "poor upbringing" is because they want people to recognize it. If you think it is what defines you as a person then maybe you shouldnt get pissed when others use it to define you, lest you be a hypocrite, which wouldnt surprise me at this point. if you dont think it defines you then why do you feel the need to bring it up?