Blu Ray DRM

[Aaron Peluso]

I read this article on Business Week that really slammed Sony's Blu Ray for its over-reaching DRM.

Kind of interesting especially when taken in context with our earlier debate about ps3 and xbox360...

From : http://businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060526_680075.htm?chan=technology_special+repo rt+-+high-tech+tv+2006_high-tech+tv+2006

BORDER PATROL. But all software-based copy-protection schemes can be broken. The only way a DRM can really work is to control all of the hardware the video data flow through, including the monitor. The problem is that at some point an unencrypted video signal is sent to a display device. It can be split off before it gets there or videotaped once it's on the screen.

The AACS (Advanced Access Content System) standard supported by both the Sony and Microsoft camps addresses this problem. The standard calls for scaling down HD content to a low resolution if the player isn't hooked up to an HDCP-compliant connection. HDCP (High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is a DRM system invented by Intel (INTC (javascript: void showTicker('INTC'))) that attempts to control video and audio as it flows out of a player and onto a display. In other words, if the player is connected to a monitor without the right cables, the quality of the image will be deliberately degraded.

Blu-ray, however, goes beyond the AACS, incorporating two other protection mechanisms: The ROM Mark is a cryptographic element overlaid on a "legitimate" disk. If the player doesn't detect the mark, then it won't play the disc. This will supposedly deal with video-camera-in-the-theatre copies.

STRANGLEHOLD ON CONTENT. Even more extreme is a scheme called BD+ that deals with the problem of what to do when someone cracks the encryption scheme. The players can automatically download new crypto if the old one is broken. But there's an ominous feature buried in this so-called protection mechanism: If a particular brand of player is cryptographically "compromised," the studio can remotely disable all of the affected players. In other words, if some hacker halfway across the globe cracks Sony's software, Sony can shut down my DVD player across the Net.

The Blu-ray's DRM scheme is simply anti-consumer. The standard reflects what the studios really want, which is no copying of their material at all, for any reason. They're clearly willing to take active and unpleasant measures to enforce this. Last year's Sony/BMG rootkit fiasco comes to mind (see BW Online, 11/29/05, "Sony BMG's Costly Silence" (http://businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2005/tc20051129_938966.htm)). The possibility that they would disable thousands of DVD players, not because they're hacked but just because they might be vulnerable, would have been unthinkable a few years ago; it's clearly an option today.

[SD Garrett]

in english please?

[didj prophet]

basically it is saying that sony is going overboard with the copyright protection measures they are trying to put in effect with blu-ray, which could be a large handicap for blu-ray in the impending format war between blu-ray and hd-dvd

they really need to just get over it and realize that the vast majority of people that actually buy dvds are people that are too retarded, lazy, or ethical to download and/or copy dvds, personally i have netflix and a dvd burner and that is where i get my dvds, but i do that because i am too broke to buy dvd's anyway, so it's not like they are losing a sale when i copy a dvd

[Dzan]

Sony has a history of doing this...

Beta, Mini Disc, whatever file format they invented to compete with mp3 that was a total failure, UMD, and now blu ray.

[unorthadox]

What the hell is your avatar a picture of? Princess Diana?

[KrisStone]

whose?

[Scrub]

maybe dzans. if so hahahahahahah

[Aaron Peluso]

What the hell is your avatar a picture of? Princess Diana?

lol

[skimboarder]

what does the blue ray do anyway?

[didj prophet]

it uses a blue laser to read the dvd instead of a red one like normal dvds, the blue laser has a shorter wavelength, allowing it to read data that is crammed into a smaller space, allowing a single layer of a disc to hold up to 25 gigs as opposed to 4.7, or a dual layer to hold 50 instead of 9

since blu-ray or HD-DVD will be the new standard format for movies as the world moves on to HD technology, they are trying to make sure that copyright protection will be uncrackable, which is an excercise in futility to say the least

[Icej]

Nothing is uncrackable. Sony needs to learn this and move on. The amount of revenue they are losing because people are "copying" dvds shouldn't be their problem. They should focus on quality control.

[Dzan]

What the hell is your avatar a picture of? Princess Diana?

I take it you arent an 80's movie buff.

[Blanton]

I take it you arent an 80's movie buff.


Bart Taylor from Rad?

[ZapBulletRider]

I haven't seen this movie in ages so I'm going out on a limb, but is it the asshole from Karate Kid?

[ballen]

William Zabka-johnny from karate kid.

[Jeff.Liu]

Sony has a history of doing this...

Beta, Mini Disc, whatever file format they invented to compete with mp3 that was a total failure, UMD, and now blu ray.

Mini Disc is one of the greatest inventions ever (still big over in Asia/Europe)

a standard ATRAC LP4 conversion on one disc you can have up to 300 songs

mind you, before you start flaming THIS was before HD MP3 players and MP3 CD Players

Sony decided they were going too far with it and ended it (research/program wise) they just started making HI-MD Players now

HI-MD discs cost less than 3 dollars (ebay) and they fit 1000MB of MP3's BUT using LP4 conversion this makes MP3's more smalled than the average MP3 by far.

as of now i have 3000 songs on ONE DISC, PLUS u can use it for data storage ALSO

A DISC that costs 3 bucks

i dont know why MD systems arent popular here, but the states do have their core guys that use it.

my first mini disc was back in 98(which finally broke in '06), since then it built to MD receiver for my surround sound, to a mini disc head unit/md disc changer for my car

if Sony ever decides to make something better than a LP4 Conversion for MD systems it would be insane, but business is business. they probably wont make something because all they are in for is for the money

Ipods are overpriced and overrated

[Jeff.Liu]

As for UMDs

in Japan theres people that actually are burning stuff onto BLANK UMDs

as for how they got the technology thats a different question.

blank UMDs are probably being sold in markets all over asia, stolen from the factories where they are made (thailand or taiwan i forgot)

as for burning hardware, i dont know how they got their hands on that shit

i know for a fact that UMDs have almost the same capacity as a normal dvd, in the later years,

we might be putting all our movies/games/songs on UMDs instead of dinky expensive sony memory sticks (talking to the PSP users)

[Patrick]

That is sick.

[Dzan]

Too bad mini discs were a total market failure in America. There is a reason people don't use them. The compression isnt good. Sure you can fit 3000 songs on one disc, but who would? The audio quality blows and without good menu support why would you want to fit that many?

Too bad Atrac is a proprietary format that no one uses due to crappy compression and no 3rd party support. Anyone with any business sense could have told them that mp3 would beat atrac. A company as large as Sony should have been able to hire one reasonable tech analyst who could figure it out.

Too bad UMD are a total failure in the american market. I don't really give a damn if people in thailand are pirating them: that doesn't mean anything from a business standpoint. Hope isn't lost yet though. They should make the format more open, sell burning drives for them and sell blank disks. I own a PSP and I would buy a UMD burner if one was available...

Sony will never do it though. They are still in the 1997 Minidisc mentality of proprietary-format-is-king. And the Blu Ray DRM policy shows that. They just aren't ready to admit that people want open standard file formats, and if given the choice between a DRM free option and a DRM up the ass machine, consumers are smart enough to make the right choice.

[didj prophet]

without good menu support why would you want to fit that many [songs]?

that is exactly what i thought when i read this:



as of now i have 3000 songs on ONE DISC


i would never want 3k+ songs on a device if i couldn't efficiently scroll through them, that would be like having a 20 gig ipod shuffle, granted ipods aren't for everyone, but they have their niche, which i happen to fall into

in addition to that, on an MD player you cant play solitare, watch videos, make playlists, change the EQ settings, and multiple other features i am too lazy to list

and in addition to that, i agree about the UMD's, the first thing that came to mind when i found out all the details for the psp was, ill buy one as soon as sony makes it possible to burn your own UMD's, which im sure will never happen

[Teddy Hartford]

this is kinda on topic but off of where the topic has spun to...but does anyone else hate watching movies on hdtv. Sure it is sick for sports game or any real event but whenever i watch a movie in hdtv i feel like it all looks fake. It is so clear you see mistakes in special effects and sets it doesnt just work seamlessly like it does on a normal tv because you cant see the small errors. For example watching the matrix reloaded on hdtv sucks balls i had to stop watching it because it looks so greenscreened.

[Jeff.Liu]

actually the songs, audio quality is the same of a mp3



in addition to that, on an MD player you cant play solitare, watch videos, make playlists, change the EQ settings, and multiple other features i am too lazy to list

it has EQ settings and Playlists

the rest that you said is junk

[DjMattyD]

lets do some math.....so Jeff has 3000 songs crammed into one 1 gig disk

This means that on an average the songs have to be less than a third of a megabyte approx 333.33k

You are telling me that is the same amount of compression as an Mp3.

No wai!

[Dzan]

actually the songs, audio quality is the same of a mp3


No, no it isn't. (http://faq.arstechnica.com/link.php?i=1292)

The point is, an LP4 encoding is unlistenable trash, and LP2 is barely worth mentioning from an audiophile standpoint.

LP1 is cd quality, which is great, but you can't store your vaunted 3,000 songs on a single disk like you are claiming. You can't have it both ways. You can't say, "my thing stores 3,000 songs on a disk" and also, "it sounds as good as mp3." It's either one or the other.

Having to make that choice is, for me, a deal breaker when I can have my cake and eat it too with an Ipod.

[Jeff.Liu]

http://www.minidisc.org/lp4_mode_quality.html

[Dzan]

There is nothing less relevent than a subjective listening experience from a random person in an uncontrolled environment.

The guy writing that piece claims to be some kind of audiophile, yet he doesn't even mention what headphones he is using. That leads me to believe he isn't using audiophile grade headphones which makes his "blind tests" completely worthless.

Also interesting that he claims he is too old to hear the highs anymore: being that clipping of the highs is the most noticeable feature of audio compression; listen to an mp3 encoded at 96kbs and the same song at 320 and try to find where the singer makes a noticable 's' sound. On the low quality encoding the s will be clipped, on the high it will be much less so. Since this guy can't hear the top of the 's' anyway he has no way of hearing whether lp4 is clipping the highs (which it assuredly is.) I have serious doubts whether he can distinguish compression artifacts from the music, either.

[didj prophet]

the rest that you said is junk

the rest that i said is a matter of preference, which is why i said the following


ipods aren't for everyone, but they have their niche, which i happen to fall into

if you enjoy your minidisc player, that's fine, but i will defend my ipod until the day i die


....or until something better comes out

[BART]

given the amount of inexpensive mp3 HD players available, i don't get why people would choose minidisc at all. especially now that mp3 listeners are trending toward high bitrate and lossless.

[Derek Makekau]

how about them blu ray DRMs?

[Jeff.Liu]

consumers fail to see the flaws in HD MP3 Players (IPODs), they break and then they go back to best buy and ask for a exchange or buy a new one. its retarded .

i will never trust something with a HD thats almost the same size as my wallet, my friends already gone through 3 Ipods thats through various defects and yet he still wants one, that plays video (even bigger risk of breaking)

i dont know much about audio, but what ever comes out threw my MD player sounds the same to me on anything it plays on.

the only thing i would trust, other than a MD player is a Memory Card Player (like a SD Card Player)

[Teddy Hartford]

my ipod mini is pretty strong if you ask me. Ive had it two years dropped it a bunch of times on tile and pavement. Dropped it in a sink full of water and i leave it in my car to get hot and cold at night or left in the sun and i use it at the gym. Still works fine.

[Aaron Peluso]

how about them blu ray DRMs?

yeah, Digtital Rights Mamagements

that makes sense Derek, lots of sense.....



here is a tip Derek, in the future why don't you ask me if its okay before you open your mouth, that way I can save you some embarrassment.

OMG, so embarrassed.................

[Derek Makekau]

it was a play on the old, "so how about them yankees".

stop attacking me, aaron. it hurts.

[Aaron Peluso]

*swat*

[Derek Makekau]

hah. go check out the breakup topic. you need to go see it for that scene alone.

[didj prophet]

consumers fail to see the flaws in HD MP3 Players (IPODs), they break and then they go back to best buy and ask for a exchange or buy a new one. its retarded .

i will never trust something with a HD thats almost the same size as my wallet, my friends already gone through 3 Ipods thats through various defects and yet he still wants one, that plays video (even bigger risk of breaking)


i agree with you on one part, most consumers are retarded when it comes to electronics, i got an ipod almost two years ago in september, took good care of it, even though it took it's share of spills onto the concrete it still lasted me a year before i had to walk in to the apple store, hand it to them and get a brand new one that i walked out with, took 15 minutes, and ive taken better care of this one, im sure it would last me at least another year, but im going to make sure it craps out on me before my two year warranty is up so i can go in and get another brand new one, then i will get at least two years out of that one, that's four years off of $350, by then i'll buy a new better one

my point is, the guy next to me at the counter when i got my last one replaced was talking about how he was getting his kids replaced for the third time, and how it never lasted more then 3 months, THAT is the average consumer, a bunch of dipshits that can't take care of their stuff

i know a bunch of people that have messed up ipods because they dont take care of them, i do and i have no problems with it, $350 for 4 years seems like a legit investment to me