Is epoxy worth it?

[autonomous]

I'm buying a new vic poly and I'm undecied on if I should go epoxy or not

[ZapBulletRider]

yes * 10000

I don't have skimboard specific experience but in every other capacity that I've worked w/ resin (skateboards, surfboards), the answer is without a doubt, YES

[Teddy Hartford]

they last alot longer. so yes.

[myusernamewastaken]

indeed you should

[didj prophet]

according to slotstik, no epoxy is not worth it and polyester is better.........

according to everyone else on the planet, including myself, yes, epoxy is better and worth it

...not to badmouth slotstik to you slotty lovers, i like the way they ride, but i still cant get over reading that FSM article and hearing him defend polyester over epoxy

[TheRealVortex]

i like poly over epoxy. easier to work with i think. i loved m y slutstik and probly will be my next board. heard hes doing double carbon now?

[myusernamewastaken]

yea but double carbon is expensive as hell

[ZapBulletRider]

i like poly over epoxy. easier to work with i think.

my ass. Epoxy is no more difficult than poly, if you want longer pot time go w/ a slower hardener. Not to mention it's a LOT less toxic.

[didj prophet]

well i cant really comment on which is easier to work with as i have little to no experience working with any resin (other then weed resin), but even if polyester is easier to work with, it doesnt change the fact that it gives the board less structural integrity then epoxy, and since im not making the board, i will stick with epoxy

[SteveTaylor]

you guys saying polyester is better are fucking morons.

[buca de bepo]

what about vinylester?

[TheRealVortex]

zbr i have worked with epoxy. i dont like personally. the stuff i have worked with sucked. but then again i built hardtops for sport fishers and big yatchs. 2 part and it was a bitch to mix

[ZapBulletRider]

2 part? So is polyester! It's the same thing, you have a resin and a hardener. What did you use? I've used West and MAS, I found both to be the same or easier to work w/ than polyester. You can get fast, med, and slow hardeners and even mix & match to customize pot time.

[MaloSkimmer]

Ken what size batches were you mixing? Must have been big slow cure batches. Gallons + hey? That is totaly different than what goes on in the skim or surf ind.

I have never understood how people think epoxy it is harder to use than Polyester. Yes, you have to messure the two parts propperly. Yes, in Fla. most of the time you have to use Med. or slow hardners, because of the heat out side. Yes, a min of 4 hrs untill it cures enough to move a project kinda sucks.

On the other side. It wets out glass much easier than poly. Try wetting out 1208 or 1808 biax with polyester, it's alot more work. 4oz or 6oz is so easy to work with anyway. Your neibors don't know every time you mix a bach of resin. I could go on, but no.

Only thing I don't like about it. Which is my fault 100% is I can not mix up ultra small batches of epoxy for repairs. I use a areospace grade epoxy that is mixed 2:1.... Sense I do not have propper messuring tools that would allow me to mix by weight. I'm stuck mixing a min. of 3 oz batches. Doesn't sound like alot but it is way more than you need for most simple repairs...

Yeah spend the extra money of the epoxy or just a buy a board from a company that only offers epoxy. Even though Slots construction is the best of the Poly Skimboard World.

[ZapBulletRider]

what he said.

[Aaron Peluso]

i like poly over epoxy. easier to work with i think. i loved m y slutstik and probly will be my next board. heard hes doing double carbon now?

in two threads you have claimed your next board as a slotstik and exile and a zap. hence my bad feedback on your rep.

[Aaron Peluso]

man I feel better now.

[Teddy Parker]

What are everybody's thoughts on carbon. I'm doing a writeup on it and I would like some quotes and shit from here. Anybody?

[BART]

i prefer carbon, fiberglass flexes too much for a big guy. a stiffer board is less forgiving, but maintains speed through the turn better.

p.s. read the forum rules kris

[ZapBulletRider]

I've ridden 2 carbon boards (M Paulo, M Zap Comp) for a total of about 15 waves. My next board will be carbon and I will NEVER go back.

[MaloSkimmer]

O-yeah, we have Eglass, Sglass, carbon/sglass, carbon/eglass, and now DOUBLE CARBON hahahahahahaha!!!!

[Aaron Peluso]

due to mis-information and cheapness of some other manufacturers we now somewhat routinely get requests for double carbon boards, meaning a sheet of carbon on each side instead of just one.

But all reputable manufacturers already put carbon on both sides on the standard models, including us.

[Teddy Parker]

Can I quote your posts on Carbon in an article I'm doing? Thanks.

[autonomous]

some vics only have carbon on the bottom

[Aaron Peluso]

Autonomous - IF thats true, I laugh.

Teddy, as long as you dont quote me out of context or anything...

[Harrison Welsh]

yeah i think carbon is a million times worth it. Its stronger, and definitely lighter. Since skimboards are so small and just a little variation can change the weight its not super easy to compare between boards, but surfboards are amazing to compare. My dad recently moved onto epoxy boards, they are like a quarter the weight, and are so so so much stronger and last him so long.

i think that theyre a lot stronger for their weight, and i think its the main reason exile is so big so quick, they have super light boards that seem magically stronger than everyone else at the same time, and its because they go cien por ciento carbon.

[idrathrbskimmin]

Autonomous - IF thats true, I laugh.

I think it is cause one of my boards is a vic carbon and on the top of it you can't see any carbon showing through like you can sometimes on the rails. But you can see the carcon on the bottom.

[TheRealVortex]

aaron u didnt hear? im buying all 3.

[didj prophet]

why are you buying three skimboards?

you know there's starving kids in ethiopia that dont have any skimboards, why not buy two for them?

[ZapBulletRider]

because they can't eat them.

[Doctor Delicious]

hahahah zbr....

To tell you the truth. Epoxy is lighter than polyester, but i really dont mind the slottie that i have right now being polyester. It seems to wear slower than all my other boards.

[TheRealVortex]

ive used the 2 part epoxy used on boats.i think its a 2-1 mix. red is the 1 part and the white is the 2 part. i believe it was.

[TheRealVortex]

fast dry expoy. took 15 minutes to mix a big batch working it toghter and u had about 5 minutes befor dry so 20-30 minutes tops befor you couldnt work with it.

[Stanger]

why are you buying three skimboards?

you know there's starving kids in ethiopia that dont have any skimboards, why not buy two for them?


because they can't eat them.

Priceless

[MaloSkimmer]

yeah i think carbon is a million times worth it. Its stronger, and definitely lighter. Since skimboards are so small and just a little variation can change the weight its not super easy to compare between boards, but surfboards are amazing to compare. My dad recently moved onto epoxy boards, they are like a quarter the weight, and are so so so much stronger and last him so long.

i think that theyre a lot stronger for their weight, and i think its the main reason exile is so big so quick, they have super light boards that seem magically stronger than everyone else at the same time, and its because they go cien por ciento carbon.


NOT WHAT he said
Not about carbon as amount of resin left in lam can increase or decrease the weight of a board. Which that can be controled at will.
Not about epoxy surfboards as his dad recently started riding them but last him so long.
100% not what you think about Exile. Their E-glass board were way better than other companies boards at the time. The magicaly stronger propperly double wrapped rails were not quite magic.

I'll give you stronger for their weight.

Sorry, but I had to.... As nice as I could also.....

[MaloSkimmer]

Sorry, I missed this one during lunch. Yeah, I just got home.

"because they go cien por ciento carbon" H.W.
"Cien Por Ciento" translates to 100%

Wrong!!!!

[Harrison Welsh]

Sorry, I missed this one during lunch. Yeah, I just got home.

"because they go cien por ciento carbon" H.W.
"Cien Por Ciento" translates to 100%

Wrong!!!!

woops i meant epoxy

[Harrison Welsh]

NOT WHAT he said
Not about carbon as amount of resin left in lam can increase or decrease the weight of a board. Which that can be controled at will.
Not about epoxy surfboards as his dad recently started riding them but last him so long.
100% not what you think about Exile. Their E-glass board were way better than other companies boards at the time. The magicaly stronger propperly double wrapped rails were not quite magic.

I'll give you stronger for their weight.

Sorry, but I had to.... As nice as I could also.....

I was under the impression, though i very well may be wrong, that ALL exiles use 100% epoxy construction, whereas competing companies at the time of "birth" of exile were not consistantly using epoxy at all.

[lovestoskim]

i purchased an e-glass exile two years ago that has a polyester resin gloss and hotcoat. i am guessing that the reason for that has something to do with ease of production because polyester resin is easier to rub out and sand than epoxy. in my opinion, polyester resin does just fine for e-glass and s-glass laminates as long as the lap in the rails is good and strong. i would only go with epoxy for carbon laminates. i know one thing is for sure though...i will NEVER pay upwards of 350 bucks for a skimboard again, that is just ridiculous, i dont care what materials are used.

[Harrison Welsh]

why would epoxy be any better with carbon than with the other materials?

and I need peluso to tell me if i'm right or not that all exiles have epoxy in them.

[lovestoskim]

epoxy wets out better than polyester does. it is a lot easier to laminate a fabric that is more difficult to drape and sufficiently wet out (i.e. carbon) with epoxy. and im 100% sure that the hotcoat and gloss on my exile is polyester.

[Aaron Peluso]

all exiles are laminated 100% with epoxy. If you opt for a gloss coat we use polyester because there is no epoxy alternative that we have tried (and we have tried many) that works (i.e. doesnt add a half pound to the weight of the board). if you get textured its all epoxy.....

and loves to skim, epoxy is a better adhesive period. Eglass Sglass Carbon, its still a better adhesive. Since the job of the resin is to bind things together, epoxy is best. The fact that cabron isnt even compatable with polyesters makes it even that much more true in the case of carbon...

[MaloSkimmer]

woops i meant epoxy

ok honest mistake, I'm wasn't tring to beat you down

[lovestoskim]

an e-glass or s-glass board lammed with epoxy would be best but not for upwards of 350 dollars. i understand that there is markup done by the manufacturers and the retailers but damn. i dont even pay that much for my custom surfboards which are much more labor oriented. i do have to admit though...the board builders are damn good businessmen.

[Aaron Peluso]

an e-glass or s-glass board lammed with epoxy would be best but not for upwards of 350 dollars. i understand that there is markup done by the manufacturers and the retailers but damn. i dont even pay that much for my custom surfboards which are much more labor oriented. i do have to admit though...the board builders are damn good businessmen.

No, you are a bad businessman if you don't think that the costs and markup add up to that. You seem like a smart guy, so why dont you sit down and really do the math instead of running your mouth about how its a ripoff. If you want me to explain it to you in pm I will. Best I can tell most companies charge around $350 for their high end eglass boards regardless of whether or not its epoxy.

Best I can tell, no skimboard manufacturer is geting rich and most are struggling just to survive.

[WOODOO]

If you want your board to last you should def go epoxy and carbon. My first board was a Vic Ultra and after a year the tail & nose were worn down almost to the foam I had to regloss them so it didn't happen, the rails weren't even sharp anymore and the resin seemed to be more brittle. If I hit a rock I would get a crack or ding. Ive had my Exile carbon for about half a hear now and it is not showing much signs of wear even tho Ive skimmed about once a week since I got it. The tail doesn't show much wear which suprises me because if it were polyester I would expect it to be showing a lot of carbon by now. You can see carbon through the nose but that is because when I bought it I could already see it a little bit but thats normal and Im always sticking the nose in the sand which is making it wear faster. The rails are almost as sharp as when I bought it too. So I would say at least get epoxy and if you have extra money get carbon too.

[MaloSkimmer]

How did you come to the name Woodoo?

I know Woodoo as a South American skateboard company. Kinda interesting it showed up here on skimonline.

[Teddy Hartford]

i think its his real name.

[WOODOO]

ye its my real name but ive heard of those skateboards b4

[Harrison Welsh]

mhm

[eastcoasthurl]

yes

[lovestoskim]

aaron, i understand that there is a certain amount of markup involved in every hard goods retail business. i am just curious to know what kind of labor charges are involved in skimboard production (per step), as i am sure that the materials costs are a fair amount cheaper, assuming glass is bought by the roll and resin by the drum etc... i also understand that nobody is getting rich off of building skimboards and i wouldnt expect them too because of the small grass roots type of community skimboarding has. also, i know that airbrushing is a pretty lucrative art form especially when on cars, surfboards, skimboards, and other hard goods, but from what i have seen, the "art" on some of the boards i see being sold for 30+ dollars looks like it could be printed on rice paper laminates. if the art is printed on lams, is the cost mostly offsetting the cost of the original labor put in by the designer? i am just looking for answers as to how these costs are added up. you can explain it to me in pm if you feel it would be more appropriate.

[Aaron Peluso]

Art is a good example to work with in public... the wholesale art surcharge on Exiles is something like 17 bucks. On average it takes about an hour to do the art, more or less. Thats 10 bucks. Plus the cost of materials, a few bucks... this implies that we make about 4 bucks off of our 13 dollar investment, yielding something like 30% ROI before overhead, assuming nothing goes wrong, which it often does.

So out of that $30 the consumer pays, I make $4.00, which promptly gets put in pool towards the 150 thousand dollars or so of "fixed" expenses I have every year (rent, marketing, insurance, utilities etc).

So if all we sold was "art surchages" we would have to spend $487,500 on labor and materials in order to make the $150,000 that would cover our fixed expenses for the year. Not including sales and administration expenses as well as some others....

We dont sell "art surcharges" as if its a big part of our business (definitely more hassle then its worth financially). But the skimboard manufacturing numbers follow the same principles, except our margins are lower on those.

Does my position make a little more sense now?

[lovestoskim]

it does, thank you. would it be easier though to print the stock art onto rice paper laminates and simply lam them in or is the cost of the screenprinting more than the cost of an airbrush? also, what are the labor costs associated with laminating, hotcoating, sanding, glossing, polishing etc... or is that confidential information? i understand if you cannot tell me. another thing, do any board companies offer clear boards with no pigment or art on them or is that not available because of trade secret-type stuff.

[ZapBulletRider]

lts, you said you don't even pay 350 for your custom surfboards. You can't use that as a comparison since you work(ed?) at HIC and obviously get a discount. 99% of people have to pay more than 350 for a custom surfboard. And from what I've seen, the construction in a skimboard is much better than on a surfboard. It has to withstand a shitload more pounding and scraping on sand.

[MaloSkimmer]

And from what I've seen, the construction in a skimboard is much better than on a surfboard. It has to withstand a shitload more pounding and scraping on sand.


The foam in skimboards is way better. I guess you could argue because of Vbagging methods of the lam work on skimboards makes construction better, but I don't think surfboards are made poorly as far as the work goes.

If skimboarding offered Pro riders 30,000 for 1st. place in major contest you might see core made out of H-45 and wraped in 100% carbon. Designed to only with stand the single contest.

Then again I'm not sure if the performance values would be any better than the strong boards we have now, but then again companies could market extremly expensive throw away boards, tell people that they are better, people would buy them and then come on this site and tell the world how much better they are.

That is my plan any way. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[Aaron Peluso]

it does, thank you. would it be easier though to print the stock art onto rice paper laminates and simply lam them in or is the cost of the screenprinting more than the cost of an airbrush? also, what are the labor costs associated with laminating, hotcoating, sanding, glossing, polishing etc... or is that confidential information? i understand if you cannot tell me. another thing, do any board companies offer clear boards with no pigment or art on them or is that not available because of trade secret-type stuff.

first the implementation of rice paper art isnt compatible with our construction process as is. second its expensive, probably almost as much and third you would then have to inventory your art, which is even harder to do from a cash flow perspective.

i cant tell you exactly how much it costs in labor to do the things tou asked about but its easy for you to estimate. take the time it takes you to make a board, multiply that by about 1.4 because other people dont work as fast as you and you werent completely honest with your time assessment, then multiply those hours by the hourly wage rate which is probably around 10 bucks an hour after taxes, if your lucky.

there are multiple reasons why companies dont offer clear boards. I dont really want to get into it.

[ZapBulletRider]

my daughter and dog teamed up to unroll and destroy my entire roll of rice paper, which was small and cost 17 bucks. That shit is not cheap.

[Aaron Peluso]

yeah, I meant the printing is 'expensive', not the paper

[ZapBulletRider]

still though, I was surprised that tiny roll cost so much.

[Aaron Peluso]

oh, rice paper is relatively inexpensive if you get it from the right source. Art stores and such mark it up a lot.

[lovestoskim]

i was under the impression that most surfboard and skimboard manufacturers employ "piece-workers" to shape, lam, hotcoat, etc..... i could see how an hourly wage would jack the price up dramatically though if the workers arent honest.

[lovestoskim]

lts, you said you don't even pay 350 for your custom surfboards. You can't use that as a comparison since you work(ed?) at HIC and obviously get a discount. 99% of people have to pay more than 350 for a custom surfboard. And from what I've seen, the construction in a skimboard is much better than on a surfboard. It has to withstand a shitload more pounding and scraping on sand.

yeah, i do get a discount but its not much of a discount, the way i get boards so cheap is because of the relationships i have built up with the shapers and laborers. the construction of a skimboard may be better durability wise because of the materials used and a more up to date laminating technique. in my opinion a lot more work and craftsmanship goes into a surfboard though, especially if the blank is completely hand shaped, and even more-so if there are elaborate concaves, channels, wings, etc... through working at the HIC factory i have had the opportunity to be able to learn the whole production process in detail and have developed a very trained eye to look at minor defects and such with. from what i have seen, the quality, with the exception of the lam because of different techniques (apples and oranges comparison), of skimboards has been more times than not, less than acceptable in standards set for surfboard craftsmanship. so construction wise, skimboards are definitely stronger but in the case of overall quality and appearance of finished product, surfboards are better.

[Aaron Peluso]

Not quality, maybe appearance, but they use higher quality (more expensive) materials require the same amount of labor if not more and retail for less than surfboards.

I think most of my guys are honest, and I am frankly pretty happy with their output these days, knowing how long it takes to make a board first hand.

Just cause you get HIC boards for wholesale or better doesnt mean everyone else does. And your perception of how much these things should cost is skewed because of it.

[hobo]

I have a vic foamie..
Not sure what the top is made up of, but i can see the little stringies on it.

The paint job is wearing off, after about a year of mild usage. The blue paint is turning greenish, probably the layer underneath.

Whatever that material is, i hate it.

My teacher uses epoxy, and it looks like a great material

[skimnj973]

I have a vic foamie..
Not sure what the top is made up of, but i can see the little stringies on it.

The paint job is wearing off, after about a year of mild usage. The blue paint is turning greenish, probably the layer underneath.

Whatever that material is, i hate it.

My teacher uses epoxy, and it looks like a great material

sounds liek your board is de laminating

[WOODOO]

I think most of my guys are honest, and I am frankly pretty happy with their output these days, knowing how long it takes to make a board first hand.

How long does it take your guys to make a board if you don't mind me asking? I've just always been curious as to how many you guys can get done in a day.

[Aaron Peluso]

I cant tell you how many boards we make a day, but it takes about a week to make a board.

[WOODOO]

Wow thats longer than I expected but Im sure there are reasons for it

[Aaron Peluso]

cure cycles and a little inefficiency/problem padding

[Doctor Delicious]

problem padding?
im lost.

[BART]

im guessing problem padding = time for unexpected issues

[autonomous]

I used to work at Ron Jon Fag Shop and I could get hard goods at cost. i never bought anything, but a Zap carbon would have been 270 for me and as far as surfboards go, i would get a Ron Jon board for 140 lol and a lost or channel island for 350-450.

[Aaron Peluso]

that just more evidence of how not rad the skim manufacturing business is.

bart was right with his guess, of course.

[~ZAP Brannigan~]

EDIT: nm, i answered my own question

[MaloSkimmer]

cure cycles and a little inefficiency/problem padding

Do you actualy run a heat tunnel or bake room out there?

If so that has to be a large expense....

[Aaron Peluso]

heat tunnel. thats funny.

...and we dont talk about how we make our boards..

[lunarone]

I used to work at Ron Jon Fag Shop and I could get hard goods at cost. i never bought anything, but a Zap carbon would have been 270 for me and as far as surfboards go, i would get a Ron Jon board for 140 lol and a lost or channel island for 350-450.

Signature = Fuck you cracker!


Your post isn't the problem, it has more to do with what I saw after your post.

So I guess it would be cool with you if I put "Fuck you nigger!" In my sig?

Think about your ignorance, niggard.

[MaloSkimmer]

heat tunnel. thats funny.

...and we dont talk about how we make our boards..

We all know that by now, I knew not to expect an answer. But what is funny about a heat tunnel. My wife has two of them....Ok, maybe three....

I think you have three or four industrial sized pussies that you slip each Exile into to give it that attitude and strenght it needs to be an Exile.

I like this thread.......

I also edited this post from talking about a post cureing devise to a even more fictional devise... Honestly it was to be funny.

[Aaron Peluso]

i told you heat tunnel was funny.

we dont have anything like the device you mentioned, and its time to stop guessing...

[anmaisle]

i like this thread too. very intriguing stuff. for real. i just read like the whole thing and rite now i wish i had the knowledge of aaron peluso. all my questions would be answered =)

[waddsworth]

Steve Taylor, from what I understand, is Aaron's brain. Kinda of like Karl Rove to George Bush.