Rumsfeld Resigns

[Colon]

A day late but at least that clown is out.

[BART]

this seems so unnecessary, considering how awesome iraq is unfolding and everything.

[beezy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkq0w6ua_Sg

[BART]

does this mean the admin will stop acting like it's in pretend land?

[Jeff.Liu]

A day late but at least that clown is out.

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

[Colon]

fallujah, I mean hallelujah!

[Max Shapiro]

does this mean the admin will stop acting like it's in pretend land?

exspecially since everyone except the people at the top knew exactly what was going to happen in Iraq (which is exactly what is happening) and made plans to prevent it, and the Admin said no way thats not gonna happen and just ignored all the experts.

[ZapBulletRider]

oh boy, here we go

[BART]

yes, i realize my comments were somewhat flaming, because i'm fucking frustrated as hell with american politicians right now, on both sides.

so let me elaborate and post something more articulate. i'm tired of the lack of candidness about the iraq war. the bush admin hasn't been candid about what the problems are. part of the reason is strategic -- send messages of unwaivering resolve to the enemy. the other reason for lack of candidness is political -- the admin has absolutely been concerned that admission of error or difficultly with the war would cost the GOP in the election.

so here we are, day 1 after election and rumsfeld is fired/quits whatever.

'stay the course' politicians are always asking others what they would do differently. i think the answer is pretty simple. stop pretending that things are going as planned, and that we're going to win simply because we're simple, freedom-loving people, and let's look at the real problems, look at were we've been completely ignorant and stubborn, own up to the assumptions and calculations that were incorrect, try to understand what america's role really is in the deeper conflict driving the war (sectarian disharmony), get rid of the people incapable of acknowledging these basic facts, and go from there. up until now, we haven't even been able to have this conversation, because anyone disagreeing with the admin's stay the course line has been dismissed as a liberal, terrorist-sympathizing, pussy. how can you even explore modifications to the war strategy when the people at the helm are insisting no mistakes have been made and nothing is wrong? I don't even think more than 50% of americans understand what the political state of iraq is right now. i mean there are some serious political obstacles in iraq, most of which the americans have very little weight. But people still think Iraq is a war between freedom-loving Americans vs. freedom-hating terrorists, and over-simplistic politcal rhetoric is largely to blame for that.

the admin's political fear of candidness has been a cancer in dealing with this iraq problem. now the elections are over, hopefully they'll grow some balls and be more willing to discuss what we're really looking at.

are the dems guiltless? fuck no. they've been milking this and every misfortune in iraq like no other, and i agree it's fucking irritating.

[ZapBulletRider]

moderators shouldn't be political

[BART]

true

[omi one]

And I was just starting to like the guy.





Yeah right.

[Rob G]

I met him at the pentagon when my dad was stationed there.

[RexSkimmer]

they're just so incompetent

[Dzan]

In other news Charlie Crist has become Florida's first gay governor. Huzzah!

[narwhal]

Jim Davis would of drove FL into the ground. My family is pretty liberal and all of them voted for Charile.

I am so happy Harris lost though, that bitch needs to die.

[Dzan]

Jim Davis would of drove FL into the ground. My family is pretty liberal and all of them voted for Charile.

I am so happy Harris lost though, that bitch needs to die.

I dont have a real problem with Charlie's politics: he is pro gun, pro choice and obviously not anti-gay, and he doesnt really seem to care about school vouchers. My only problem is he is a queer and he is staying in the closet because he knows no openly gay republican is going to win anything. I think its despicable to deny who you are- whatever you are- in order to curry political favor. If youre a gay politician, say it. If youre a radical socialist, say it. If you want a theocracy, say that too. I just want people to own up to their reality.

[narwhal]

Why seriouslly do you think he is gay?

I have met him twice, and he has sort of that little guy im scard feeling but i cant see gay. Id say it wouldn't surpise me, but no repulican in the south especially, can be openly gay. (just how it works)

I just think your calling him gay because he is red, but I perfer moderate politicians and Charile was far more moderate.

[DjMattyD]

moderators shouldn't be political
Super moderators can.

[Dzan]

Why seriouslly do you think he is gay?

I have met him twice, and he has sort of that little guy im scard feeling but i cant see gay. Id say it wouldn't surpise me, but no repulican in the south especially, can be openly gay. (just how it works)

I just think your calling him gay because he is red, but I perfer moderate politicians and Charile was far more moderate.

No, I'm calling him gay because he is a well dressed, machine tanned, middle aged man who hasn't been linked romantically to a woman since his wife divorced him (for undisclosed reasons) years ago and has been linked to several males. Granted since I didnt see him kiss a dude I can't be sure, and thus all that evidence is circumstantial. However, when all the evidence points in one direction I have to go with my gut.

If you can look at all that and say, "the jury is still out," fine. I can't.

edit: http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/Issues/2006-10-26/news/norman.html

[narwhal]

hahaha good article.

"I have not had sex with a man"

[noah lane]

oooooh, one more blow for the republicans...

but bart, i hear ya.

[Aaron Peluso]

Do you guys think Rumsfeld quit because of the elections? Or was quiting anyway, and just waiting until after the elections?

[jake]

edit: http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/Issues/2006-10-26/news/norman.html




I asked Crist during a phone interview on Monday morning if he had ever had sex with Jordan.

"No," he said. "I don't recall the name."

like that means something

[ZapBulletRider]

Super moderators can.

my bad

[narwhal]

Do you guys think Rumsfeld quit because of the elections? Or was quiting anyway, and just waiting until after the elections?

I think it was because of the elections.

Alot of powerful Dems that are now in charge wanted to have hearings on Rumsfeld. It saved Bush and Rumsfeld alot of embarrassment. Those hearings could still happen anyway.

[HandsomeJonneh]

A gay republican is a blow?

Okay, now normally I don't get involved in these debates, but now I'm getting a little irritated with Noah Lane and his recent terms to group conservatives into a general concession of beliefs.

If every man had the same beliefs, we'd all have one party. But we have a number of parties... with a general majority belief. Not 100% belief. Just on certain ones, enough to be called a member of that party.

Now, on to the calling out. A gay republican is a blow to the party? How the fuck does this affect me one bit? A few of my family members are gay. Should they be killed and burned in hell, and not be treated as humans? No, just because I don't agree with homosexuality, doesn't mean I can't accept it and treat everyone equally. I don't care if someone is gay or not, unless they're some prick who I can't even stand to be around for more than a second... but there's a lot more heterosexual people out there that are like that.

So does this not make me a republican now? Just because I don't always agree with my party's leaders beliefs? I believe it is wrong, but I'm also a little for some rights at times. I believe in pro-life, but I can see a necessity for the option of pro-choice if it is detrimental to the health of the expectant mother.

I'm sure there's matters you don't agree with on liberalism, but comeon, you liberal, be sensible.

And yes, I just stooped down to you and the rest of them's level. Shame on me for proving a point.

[narwhal]

Noah is just trying to start something. He has been doing it on most all political threads as of late. Its funny because he never was so out there on his political stance, in-till the Demos took over.

Noah, all republicans are not southern Baptist. (YOUR governor is one)

[RavesIsBack]

why do we even listen to him? what does he know about politics? I mean all I have done is study it for 4 years in depth in college, work in Washington DC, and am intelligent. He lacks those 3.

I think Gay Republican would help the party and I know this because of insider information. But logically, it would open the door for more of the demographic to come to the right.

But again if he is hiding it, so what? Dzan makes it seem like all politicians tell the truth about everything all the time. hahahahah, that was hard to type. Clearly politicians as a whole do what it takes to keep the constituency happy and if he came out he probably wouldnt have won. But if he came out now, as a republican I would not have a problem with it. I welcome anyone that hates dems.

[didj prophet]

why does everything always have to boil down to republicans vs. democrats?

i'm niether, because i can't stand bipartisan politics, it's just an "us vs. them" mentality that gets us nowhere, until republicans and democrats can learn to work together and not bicker like 10 year olds all the time, we're all fucked

not that i expect that to ever happen, if history teaches us anything, it's that human beings will always be bickering like 10 year olds about the shit that matters the most

as for rumsfeld, thank god he resigned, republican or democrat, you can't deny that rumsfeld is a piece of shit

[Joey M.]

I dont have a real problem with Charlie's politics: he is pro gun, pro choice and obviously not anti-gay, and he doesnt really seem to care about school vouchers. My only problem is he is a queer and he is staying in the closet because he knows no openly gay republican is going to win anything. I think its despicable to deny who you are- whatever you are- in order to curry political favor. If youre a gay politician, say it. If youre a radical socialist, say it. If you want a theocracy, say that too. I just want people to own up to their reality.

Well, unfortunately (and contrary to popular belief), politics is not the place to express yourself.

Besides, why is it such a big deal if Charlie admits he's gay or not? It doesn't affect his competence as a politician nor would it really change any of his views or policies.

[Rocco]

but hes governor or florida...a southern state, the birthplace of nascar and the least bit catholic conservative.....your gonna have problems with a gay guy in power

[narwhal]

FL is not your usual Southern State.

[Rocco]

i will admit that, i consider florida more tropical than southern..or at least not a part of the south...but nonetheless it is technically a southern state and carry some of the southern steretypes

[waddsworth]

Well, unfortunately (and contrary to popular belief), politics is not the place to express yourself.

Besides, why is it such a big deal if Charlie admits he's gay or not? It doesn't affect his competence as a politician nor would it really change any of his views or policies.


I guess you haven't heard of a little issue known as "Gay Marriage", which happens to be political in nature.

[BART]

Do you guys think Rumsfeld quit because of the elections? Or was quiting anyway, and just waiting until after the elections?
the latter. i think he (and others) didn't want his resignation to take up a bunch of news cycles before the elections, which it would have. it also may have made the admin look weak. seems to me an earlier resignation could have actually helped the GOP, but maybe it's a risk they just didn't want to take?

[waddsworth]

the latter. i think he didn't want his resignation to take up a bunch of news cycles before the elections, which it probably would have. seems to me an earlier resignation could have actually helped the GOP, but maybe it's a risk they just didn't want to take?


I think the latter also. The full effect of the elections won't be felt for some time.

[Aaron Peluso]

I think the latter as well.

Although the hearings thing does make some sense, maybe, if thats true. I kinda doubt it though cause while some think Rumsfelds decisions might not have been great in retrospect, I havent heard anyone say he was criminally negligent.

[narwhal]

He is being blamed for the contracting issues in Iraq.

[narwhal]

I agree though they really wouldn't get criminal charges. But it would hurt republicans ALOT if there were hearings. Rumsfeld at one point was under alot more fire then now, why not let him go at that point? And it just so happens to be after the elections and after meeting with republican strategist and GOP leaders.

[BART]

I think the latter as well.

Although the hearings thing does make some sense, maybe, if thats true. I kinda doubt it though cause while some think Rumsfelds decisions might not have been great in retrospect, I havent heard anyone say he was criminally negligent.

i'm not sure what you mean by the hearings? i haven't been really following the news today. kind of burnt out on politicians moving their mouths, or the partisanship of the cable reporting, honestly. are they suggesting rumsfeld is going to have to sit in front of congress and come up with some answers?

[narwhal]

There are suppose to be hearings on the subject of all the problems with the miltary contracting with the military/Iraq. (Rumsfeld will be an important figure) There are alot of loop holes and just plain mistakes when it comes to some of the contracts. Clinton and Nancy P. have stated early fall if Rumsfeld wouldn't step down and the Dems won the house there was a possible hearing/impeachment of Rumsfeld. I dont see that happening at this point because he did step down and the Dems are supposedly wanting peace.

[Joey M.]

I guess you haven't heard of a little issue known as "Gay Marriage", which happens to be political in nature.

And what is it about this "gay marriage" that pertains to Charlie? Last I checked, he only supported it (which there is no fault in a politician doing so); he wasn't engaged, planning to get married anytime soon, or even openly gay.

[noah lane]

why do we even listen to him? what does he know about politics? I mean all I have done is study it for 4 years in depth in college, work in Washington DC, and am intelligent. He lacks those 3.

Homie, you lack a spine, and probably friends as well. You can't even post your real name or face ..but i'm not mad atcha. This is just a message board and we are simply sharing opinions.

I know I am not a genius or overly knowledgable in politics, but I do know enough and am intelligent enough to form an opinion. I can't stand extreme liberals just as much as extreme conservatives. All I do on here is share my opinions and listen to all of you. I always attempt to look at both sides.

[Joey M.]

I do know enough and am intelligent enough to form an opinion.

That doesn't say much about your knowledge or your IQ.

[noah lane]

hey captain obvious, i was admitting that myself :o

[RavesIsBack]

Homie, you lack a spine, and probably friends as well. You can't even post your real name or face ..but i'm not mad atcha. This is just a message board and we are simply sharing opinions.

I know I am not a genius or overly knowledgable in politics, but I do know enough and am intelligent enough to form an opinion. I can't stand extreme liberals just as much as extreme conservatives. All I do on here is share my opinions and listen to all of you. I always attempt to look at both sides.

so you wanna fight me huh? I have always said that if you resort to physical violence then you have lost the mental battle. And by saying I dont have a spine by not posting my real name or face, look at the countless number of people on here that you love and adore that you know by a MB name or dont know the face.

[noah lane]

...i've actually met most (or at least several) of the people on here

and i never said anything about fighting you, i called you spineless. don't get soo defensive, guy.

[Joey M.]

hey captain obvious, i was admitting that myself :o

Hey, dumbass, anybody can form an opinion, but it takes something more to form an intelligent opinion (which is obviously something you don't possess). The fact that you "know enough and are intelligent enough to form an opinion" puts you on the same intellectual level as Forrest Gump.

[noah lane]

Thanks, Joey M.

[RavesIsBack]

ouch, who is this Joey guy? he fucking owned you. however a better choice over Forrest Gump wouldve given him some rep. Maybe some sort of animal?

[Max Shapiro]

I dont think Rumsfeld resigned, he got fired, which amounts to the President asking for his resignation becasue firing people just looks really bad. The president himself said he was having discussions about Rumsfeld leaving at least a week before the election, which is completely opposite of what he told reporters at that time, that Rumsfeld was in for the duration. My opinion is that Bush had no idea that he was going to get his ass handed to him in the elections (which he has publicly said several times since and prior to election day) but, not wanting to be unprepared started talking to Rumsfeld about him leaving if they lost the house and/or senate in the election. They did and Rumsfeld is out and immedialtely hes allready got a replacement for him Gates who apparently (according to all the analysts on CNN and MSNBC) will be way more respected and far better in the position. Had the Republicans held the house and senate then i doubt Rumsfeld would have been fired. I say fired because from what I've read in books and heard on TV Rumsfeld is not the kinda guy to just give up that much power voluntarily without being asked to do so by the president of the United States. Resigned or Fired however it does not matter because the media is spinning it that he was fired (asked to resign by the president) and thats what we are all going to remember anyways.

[Max Shapiro]

so you wanna fight me huh? I have always said that if you resort to physical violence then you have lost the mental battle. And by saying I dont have a spine by not posting my real name or face, look at the countless number of people on here that you love and adore that you know by a MB name or dont know the face.

I love Noah Lane, hes fucking gnarly on rails.

[ZapBulletRider]

The president himself said he was having discussions about Rumsfeld leaving at least a week before the election, which is completely opposite of what he told reporters at that time, that Rumsfeld was in for the duration.

Or Rumsfeld talked to him about resigning and he's like "shit, wait till after the elections"... so then when reporters asked him he denied it, obviously.

[narwhal]

Max,

I am preety sure Bush saw this coming it was widely known in polls that the house was lost and the senate had a chance to be lost. Just because he says something eariler that really means nothing in politics. Resignation and being Fired are preety much the same thing in Washington. I really dont think Gates will do anything different. Most past Defense Secretaries and people who know him say hes a follower and doubt much will happen, its just a new name in the chair.

[narwhal]

Hey, dumbass, anybody can form an opinion, but it takes something more to form an intelligent opinion (which is obviously something you don't possess). The fact that you "know enough and are intelligent enough to form an opinion" puts you on the same intellectual level as Forrest Gump.


ahahahahah owned.

[Max Shapiro]

Max,

I am preety sure Bush saw this coming it was widely known in polls that the house was lost and the senate had a chance to be lost. Just because he says something eariler that really means nothing in politics. Resignation and being Fired are preety much the same thing in Washington. I really dont think Gates will do anything different. Most past Defense Secretaries and people who know him say hes a follower and doubt much will happen, its just a new name in the chair.

For weeks prior the election Karl Rove, whose every word Bush has been shown to hang on, had been saying the Republicans were not going to lose. His postition was that he had better and more reliable poles and access to more information than us mere mortals. Karl Rove did not see it coming, Bush did not see it coming. Most military anaylsts and reporters on CNN and MSNBC say Gates is more of a deal maker, more bi-partisan, and more willing to listen to other peoples opinions than Rumsfeld was, which is definately going to bring about some change. He is also a member of the Iraq Study Group which means he has a good idea of what is going on in Iraq and how to fix it. Anyone whos read Woodward's book will know that we knew exactly what was going to go wrong in Iraq and exactly how to avoid it, but because of power struggles and stubborness at the top of the chain of command nothing got done about it and most of the issues were not even taken to the president.

After looking at Robert Gate's history he does not look like much of a follower to me. He is the only carreer officer in history to rise from an entry level employee at the CIA to director, someone who was a follower most likely wouldnt accomplish something like that. He was offered the job of Director of United States National Intelligence, but declined, if he was just a follower don't you think he would have accepted? Hes currently President of Texas A&M and prior to that he was president of the National Eagle Scout Association, in addition to serving on the board trustees of Fidelity Investments, and on the board of directors of NACCO Industries, Inc., Brinker International, Inc. and Parker Drilling Company, Inc. The guy seems like more of a leader than a follower to me.

[narwhal]

I dont feel like quoting every statement but ill start from the bottom.

You mention Robert Gates rising the ranks of the CIA. To me that follows my statement that hes a follower. He is not out there, he just does what he is told to be done. Dont get me wrong he is one of the best choices but dont expect anything huge to happen in Iraq.

And you kept saying that Karl Rove did not see this coming. WHY OH WHY would Karl Rove and high ranking republicans say something like oh we are going to lose the house? When Cincinnati plays Ohio State the Cincy Coach says hell we will win. It kinda hurts the republican party if all the high ranking guys are saying "hey were going to get owned" (takes away some swing votes) Karl Rove and Bush are brilliant when it comes to hard ball poltics. (Bush's only cat. where is good) Now your going to bring up the point, oh if they were brillant at hard ball poltics then why did they lose the house and senete? No one could over come what the GOP was facing.

[didj prophet]

*this post has been relocated to its intended destination, the "vote today!" thread*

[noah lane]

you're going to make a great partisan politician someday, raves, and im not being sarcastic, but i do think partisan politics are what's wrong with our system


exactly. that has been the underlying point in a lot of my posts on politics lately.

as i said before, i cannot stand the far left just as much as i cannot stand the far right. it is so childish that people pretend to be so stuck in their ways they cannot see benifits in the other party.

[Aaron Peluso]

I havent really been paying attention but when did you say something good about republicans Noah?

[didj prophet]

exactly. that has been the underlying point in a lot of my posts on politics lately.

as i said before, i cannot stand the far left just as much as i cannot stand the far right. it is so childish that people pretend to be so stuck in their ways they cannot see benifits in the other party.

yeah, it really sucks because if you make a statement that leans in either direction you get people that disagree with that statement stereotyping you as a liberal democrat or a conservative republican (depending on what the statement is), i just can't stand the dichotomy of liberal democrat vs. conservative republican

[noah lane]

i have explained that i am open to see the other side. my brother is the type of dem that is so far left, he will only view liberal papers (Sacramento Bee, SF Chronicle) and watch liberal news stations (CNN, NBC). he has no interest in what the other side even has to offer. the rest of my family is the same thing but on the right.

i listen to fox news radio, watch fox news, etc. -my goal is to get both takes on the media. i try not to form my ideas simply based on party. i may come off as more liberal on the board than i really am, but that is because the board is mostly conservative and i end up being singled out.

in all honesty, all i care about is what is best for the country as a whole. i could care less which party makes it happen.

btw- i voted for Arnold

[Rob G]

in all honesty, all i care about is what is best for the country as a whole. i could care less which party makes it happen.



And isnt this what it should all come down to?
Well said norah.

[RavesIsBack]

i have explained that i am open to see the other side. my brother is the type of dem that is so far left, he will only view liberal papers (Sacramento Bee, SF Chronicle) and watch liberal news stations (CNN, NBC). he has no interest in what the other side even has to offer. the rest of my family is the same thing but on the right.

i listen to fox news radio, watch fox news, etc. -my goal is to get both takes on the media. i try not to form my ideas simply based on party. i may come off as more liberal on the board than i really am, but that is because the board is mostly conservative and i end up being singled out.
in all honesty, all i care about is what is best for the country as a whole. i could care less which party makes it happen.

btw- i voted for Arnold

ok i was going to leave you alone but that statement is so completely false that its laughable.

And Ahnuld is a Dem in Repubs clothing. He is the type of guy that is going to win office for us in 2008, because we have to take it. I am conservative not extreme right, but I would rather have a Repub than a demo. He is the Rudy Guiliani Repub. Socially liberal and Fiscally conservative, those guys are whats going to win the party back for us in 2008 and it makes me sad, but if it has to be done it has to be done.

Basically he is a liberal Republican which upsets me beyond belief, but not as much as any form of Democrat.

[noah lane]

that statement is so completely false that its laughable.

how do you mean?

[RavesIsBack]

this MB is very liberal and I have even received pms from people saying, thanks for speaking up because there are so many of those guys I cant even get a word in.

[noah lane]

hmm, it seems to me that there are only a few dems that post under these topics -there are a lot of guys from florida and they seem to be republican for the most part. maybe i am wrong.

aside from all of that, i am honestly interested in what i can learn from anyone on the board -dem or republican. politics is not my major, it is yours, raves. i have no doubt that you are more knowledgable in the field than me. whether it's on the level of the message board or washington, i don't like seeing the two sides in constant battle (even though i'm guilty of contributing to it at times).

[RavesIsBack]

I must say the level of libbies has dropped off since i was on here the first pass through, but there is still a definite bias towards the demos on this board. Was much worse, now not as bad.

[Dzan]

I must say the level of libbies has dropped off since i was on here the first pass through, but there is still a definite bias towards the demos on this board. Was much worse, now not as bad.

Funny, I see the opposite. When I first started here most people were conservative. As Aaron will attest to, I used to have long debates with Lee Majors back in the day when he was a staunch conservative, yet when he does post, he is much more liberal now. A lot of people have become more liberal here in the past 6 months. A lot of moderates on this board who used to lean right now lean left.

I'm guessing that just mirrors the general direction of the country as evidenced in this election. I have no problem seeing why the average moderate american grew increasingly dissatisfied with the administration and congressional yes-men, and I think its the same with posters here.

[Max Shapiro]

I dont feel like quoting every statement but ill start from the bottom.

You mention Robert Gates rising the ranks of the CIA. To me that follows my statement that hes a follower. He is not out there, he just does what he is told to be done. Dont get me wrong he is one of the best choices but dont expect anything huge to happen in Iraq.

And you kept saying that Karl Rove did not see this coming. WHY OH WHY would Karl Rove and high ranking republicans say something like oh we are going to lose the house? When Cincinnati plays Ohio State the Cincy Coach says hell we will win. It kinda hurts the republican party if all the high ranking guys are saying "hey were going to get owned" (takes away some swing votes) Karl Rove and Bush are brilliant when it comes to hard ball poltics. (Bush's only cat. where is good) Now your going to bring up the point, oh if they were brillant at hard ball poltics then why did they lose the house and senete? No one could over come what the GOP was facing.

Some high ranking republicans and a few conservative news anchors (Tucker Carlson, Joe Scarbourgh(sp?) admitted that they were going to lose seats. There were differing polls on either side (by side i mean politcal party) going diffrent ways when it came to who was ahead in certain state. For example in Tennesse just prior to the election there were polls putting Harold Ford down by 12 points and polls putting him down by 1 or up by 1. It is of course possible that they (Bush and Rove) did see it coming, but it is also possible that they did not because they had polling data diffrent from what everyone else was looking at. But I suppose we will never know what they really though, all we know is what they told us they thought, which chances are is all history will remember anyways.

[RavesIsBack]

Funny, I see the opposite. When I first started here most people were conservative. As Aaron will attest to, I used to have long debates with Lee Majors back in the day when he was a staunch conservative, yet when he does post, he is much more liberal now. A lot of people have become more liberal here in the past 6 months. A lot of moderates on this board who used to lean right now lean left.

I'm guessing that just mirrors the general direction of the country as evidenced in this election. I have no problem seeing why the average moderate american grew increasingly dissatisfied with the administration and congressional yes-men, and I think its the same with posters here.

the problem i have with that is those that do lean and switch. The ideas I have have not changed and will not change. Dems could make the USA a utopia or run it into hell but I will still believe what I believe on my issues. they are my beliefs and they just happen to be shared by more repubs than demos.

[Max Shapiro]

beliefs change when good arguments are made...if they dont then you are either retarded or hard-headed or you can personally refute the argument

[waddsworth]

Beliefs change with experience as well. Count me as one who used to be more liberal. But the recent explosion of obnoxious liberals spouting off the same tired talking points just got old - and I experienced far too many mind-numbing encounters with them.

[Dzan]

Beliefs change with experience as well. Count me as one who used to be more liberal. But the recent explosion of obnoxious liberals spouting off the same tired talking points just got old - and I experienced far too many mind-numbing encounters with them.

I have considered myself liberal since I was in eight grade, but my stay amid the rednecks in georgia for a year definitely made me more liberal. I guess if you only see the most obnoxious, and ignorant examples of the other side for months on end that is to be expected.

[Aaron Peluso]

Funny, I see the opposite. When I first started here most people were conservative. As Aaron will attest to, I used to have long debates with Lee Majors back in the day when he was a staunch conservative, yet when he does post, he is much more liberal now.

I am sure you did have an argument or two with LM but I always remember LM arguing a liberal point of view, in concert with you, not against you. I think its obvious that this mb leans left. For a long time the only people on the "right" were skimmer-x and me. And I am actually pretty damned centrist (based on a national cross-section). Now waddsworth and narwal chime in pretty regularly, but for every one of them there are at least three on the other side.

Which makes sense. This is a mb populated by kids and young adults. Kids and young adults tend to be more liberal. No mystery there.

[Dzan]

And I am actually pretty damned centrist (based on a national cross-section).

You're more libertarian than republican, in my opinion. I dont know how you feel about drug laws or stuff of that sort, but I've heard you argue for human evolution strongly enough to know you are to the left of most people in Kansas, at least on issues like that, hah.

[waddsworth]

And what is it about this "gay marriage" that pertains to Charlie? Last I checked, he only supported it (which there is no fault in a politician doing so); he wasn't engaged, planning to get married anytime soon, or even openly gay.

So being gay wouldn't possibly influence his vote on issues pertaining to gays, such as "gay marriage", or gay adoption?

Being openly gay wouldn't possibly give voters the impression that his focus would be on gay issues above others?

Personally, I could care less about a candidate's sexual orientation. But I can understand how they'd want to keep it in the dark if they were gay.

[Dzan]

So being gay wouldn't possibly influence his vote on issues pertaining to gays, such as "gay marriage", or gay adoption?

Being openly gay wouldn't possibly give voters the impression that his focus would be on gay issues above others?

Personally, I could care less about a candidate's sexual orientation. But I can understand how they'd want to keep it in the dark if they were gay.

To back up Wadds here, I believe Crist has said he is pro-civil unions. That position is to the left of the party platform as far as I know.

[Joey M.]

So being gay wouldn't possibly influence his vote on issues pertaining to gays, such as "gay marriage," or gay adoption?

Straight politicians vote in favor of both policies all the time. Being gay has very little to do with it; it's a matter of civil rights, not sexuality.


Personally, I could care less about a candidate's sexual orientation. But I can understand how they'd want to keep it in the dark if they were gay.

As do I, but at the same time I think that reason is bullshit and that a candidate's sexual orientation should have no place in an election.

[Joey M.]

To back up Wadds here, I believe Crist has said he is pro-civil unions. That position is to the left of the party platform as far as I know.

I don't see how being pro-civil union confirms his homosexuality being as that many straight politicians support the same policies.

[Aaron Peluso]

You're more libertarian than republican, in my opinion. I dont know how you feel about drug laws or stuff of that sort, but I've heard you argue for human evolution strongly enough to know you are to the left of most people in Kansas, at least on issues like that, hah.

John Stuart Mill was one of my favorite philosophers, but a Libertarian? First, aren't libertarians generally considered to be to the right of Republicans (at least on economic issues)? and argue for strong privacy rights etc (i.e. not me)? How does human evolution factor into a Libertarian philosophy? Socially I am definitely to the left of most in the central/southern US.

I still contend that slightly liberal, slightly republican best describes my political philosophy.

[Dzan]

I don't see how being pro-civil union confirms his homosexuality being as that many straight politicians support the same policies.

I didn't say it confirmed he was gay. I suggested that it is indicative of the potential bias a gay man might have that Republican voters might have been more conscious of if he were openly gay.

[narwhal]

I am in Young Republicans for FSU-PC.

We have like 23 people and the Dems of FSU have a hundred something. I have to deal weekly with these kids. I see the most ignorant kids ever talking about "Bush went to war for oil" I have valued my conservative values more and more.

[Rob G]

"Bush went to war for oil"

Lets no get started on that. That is the debate of most libbs, on of which I think is soo false.

What costs more, the 2 wars or OPEC raising oil prices?

It was obviously not about the oil.

[Joey M.]

I didn't say it confirmed he was gay. I suggested that it is indicative of the potential bias a gay man might have that Republican voters might have been more conscious of if he were openly gay.

I see. Thanks for clarifying

[narwhal]

Looks like John Bolton is next.

[waddsworth]

Straight politicians vote in favor of both policies all the time.

Irrelevant. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know which way an openly gay politician is going to vote. That politician is going to have a hard time getting elected by conservative Republicans.

I think we agree about what's right and wrong. I'm not talking about the ideal world though, I'm talking about the real world.

[Max Shapiro]

So why is it that people refer to themselves with lengthy terms like slightly liberal, slightly republican, instead of just telling people what they think about some important issues. People would learn more if politics were more about issues rather than party. I know its probobly impossible on a national scale because it would make it very hard to organize people, but when your argueing on an online forum why cant we just man up and instead of asking someone if they're liberal or conservative and than bashing them, ask them how they feel about things you feel strongly about...im high so i dont know if that makes any sense

[Joey M.]

Irrelevant. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know which way an openly gay politician is going to vote. That politician is going to have a hard time getting elected by conservative Republicans.

I think we agree about what's right and wrong. I'm not talking about the ideal world though, I'm talking about the real world.

Okay, while we're on the subject of the real world, let's examine a general principle of it; in the real world, people do what they have to do to succeed. Sometimes it is right, sometimes it is wrong, but in all cases it is what that person must do in order to achieve their goals. If that involves hiding a few truths (particularly when it doesn't hurt anybody as in the case of Mr. Crist), then so be it. If he has to hide his sexuality, so what? No one is going to die from it, no one is going to be hurt or traumatized from it, and in fact it might even help some people achieve the American ideal of happiness. Besides, it's not like politicians speak the truth on all matters anyway. They do what is necessary to keep the general public content. Believing otherwise is living in the ideal world, not the real one.

[Aaron Peluso]

So why is it that people refer to themselves with lengthy terms like slightly liberal, slightly republican, instead of just telling people what they think about some important issues. People would learn more if politics were more about issues rather than party. I know its probobly impossible on a national scale because it would make it very hard to organize people, but when your argueing on an online forum why cant we just man up and instead of asking someone if they're liberal or conservative and than bashing them, ask them how they feel about things you feel strongly about...im high so i dont know if that makes any sense

You are trying to say that you havent heard enough of my political views already? Maybe you havent been paying attention...

Quit smoking pot and maybe the attention span thing will improve....

[narwhal]

hahahaha

[Max Shapiro]

You are trying to say that you havent heard enough of my political views already? Maybe you havent been paying attention...

Quit smoking pot and maybe the attention span thing will improve....

I wasnt refering to you in specific, just that title you gave yourself. Id just like to hear, "so and so belives in this, this, and this" on the news, in person, on the message board instead of, "so and so is a moderate left leaning republican." Issues>Party

[Aaron Peluso]

yeah, problem is its not like I just came on here and declared myself XXXXX. I have been discussing issues here for 8 years.

After which, analyzing where my stances fall within the broader political spectrum is a valid exercise.

Count it!

[Brew]

fist pump!!

[RavesIsBack]

Peluso FTW

[Dzan]

yeah, problem is its not like I just came on here and declared myself XXXXX. I have been discussing issues here for 8 years.

After which, analyzing where my stances fall within the broader political spectrum is a valid exercise.

Count it!

Has it really been 8 years? Time flies.