Question on SQUARE?

[NorCal_SKim]

im currently riding a exile carbon and really want to pick up a square board soon! Wanted to know if people really like them and is glass good to get? or should you stick to carbon or kevlar? Any help would be awesome! thanks guys

[Michael Fk]

I have a kevlar model (pintail though)and so do both of the kids I skim with. It's got really nice float, holds lines well and is super fun in any conditions whether it's turning off white water and doing tech or hitting bigger waves. I haven't seen or rode a carbon or glass square though.

Email, call, or pm Square Dave and he'll give you a good idea of what you need

[RexSkimmer]

kevlar = tank

[Madd Skim]

search on the forums because there is a lot of good threads about squares. I got my first square (carbon) 1 month ago and love it! I personally would just go with either a carbon or Kevlar because it is worth paying the little bit more.:)

[DrM08]

very much a different board than you are riding now, very different

i personally really liked it for its float and how it held a line but as the summer was ending i almost wanted a different rocker and a faster board to get my out

[bunkerking692]

i have a carbon pintail and i love it to death. i like it alot more than my friends eglass exile

[amato]

bump/thread jack
how much rocker would you guys recommend?
Also I've heard they take some getting used to, how long did it take you guys before you ended up liking the shape?

[Madd Skim]

it took me 2 face plants to get used to it. For me it was easier to ride then my other board it was just getting the drop down on a different shaped board.

[bunkerking692]

bump/thread jack
how much rocker would you guys recommend?
Also I've heard they take some getting used to, how long did it take you guys before you ended up liking the shape?

i pretty much got used to it instantly. i rode better on that board the first time than i had ever ridden anything before

[Lance R]

squares are gay as fuck

[alexM.]

man your cool for saying that..

[amato]

squares are gay as fuck

I believe fucking is predominately a heterosexual action.

[sealy]

im currently riding a exile carbon and really want to pick up a square board soon! Wanted to know if people really like them and is glass good to get? or should you stick to carbon or kevlar? Any help would be awesome! thanks guys

carbon or kevlar...

carbon more for all around conditions and good...stiffer

kevlar for rocky conditions and flexy more...more pop

TAYLOR CADIZ has gift cards for sqaure for $100...he selling for $50...paypal it to me and i make sure he sends it out the day of. free shipping

[Hank Snapp]

Any particular reason you are switching from Exile?

I would stick to glass or carbon...I would never buy any board made of Kevlar imo...

[Skim4Lfe1988]

haha that question sounds a little bias... kevlar is a newly popular board material. I personally have never seen anyone riding a kevlar board. Imo, if you skim, it is best not to go to beaches with a lot of rocks anyway. I am pretty sure that is what the kevlar is "made" for, to ride over rocks/shells (at least from what I've heard). Hank, people are picking up squares because "they look cool" "they float good" etc.(im getting these quotes from users not personal) I'm sure a similar sized board with the same thickness from exile or square would float equally as good however the "square" shaped nose and tail board is skim innovation, people are drawn to that. I see a trend happening where Square and Exile will be the two top board companies for the next year at least. (the shape of squares boards being the main source of their popularity at the moment, Exile has been on top for a while). Other than that, all the materials going into making the boards are fairly similar, its just the shape. I'm sure if Exile came out with a board similar to squares design and called it a square board and got a patent on it, people would be doing the same thing and buying your boards. Basically, I don't think it matters who makes it, its just the shape of the board that people are attracted to. People will always be buying Exiles until the end of time. no worries

this is all my personal opinion so don't take it to heart.

[RexSkimmer]

skimming in new england, rocks are unavoidable. this year for the first summer ever i didnt get a single gash in the bottom of my board. im never going without a kevlar board again.

[Skimmer23]

I believe fucking is predominately a heterosexual action.

I believe you're an idiot

[andyman06]

i gotts a squareee coupon... $100 coupon for $40
i reeeaaaalllyyyy am not gonna use this thing

[Hank Snapp]

haha that question sounds a little bias... kevlar is a newly popular board material. I personally have never seen anyone riding a kevlar board. Imo, if you skim, it is best not to go to beaches with a lot of rocks anyway. I am pretty sure that is what the kevlar is "made" for, to ride over rocks/shells (at least from what I've heard). Hank, people are picking up squares because "they look cool" "they float good" etc.(im getting these quotes from users not personal) I'm sure a similar sized board with the same thickness from exile or square would float equally as good however the "square" shaped nose and tail board is skim innovation, people are drawn to that. I see a trend happening where Square and Exile will be the two top board companies for the next year at least. (the shape of squares boards being the main source of their popularity at the moment, Exile has been on top for a while). Other than that, all the materials going into making the boards are fairly similar, its just the shape. I'm sure if Exile came out with a board similar to squares design and called it a square board and got a patent on it, people would be doing the same thing and buying your boards. Basically, I don't think it matters who makes it, its just the shape of the board that people are attracted to. People will always be buying Exiles until the end of time. no worries

this is all my personal opinion so don't take it to heart.

Oh don't worry I don't take much to heart on here....The question wasn't really biased in my opinion. I work at Exile, and if someone is going with another company I'd like to hear why even if that doesn't stop them because it can help us in the future to make a better product...Sometimes negative feedback is more important than positive..Maybe he just wants to try something different..Its fine either way. I didn't say you shouldn't get a different companies board...now that would be biased....I did say that he shouldn't get kevlar but I would say that whether he was looking into Zap, Vic, Apex, or any other manufacturer....

That being said, kevlar isn't a newly popular board material...Jim Gordon used to make them way back in the day, and I'm sure others did as well. Kevlar is brittle so I wouldn't ride it over rocks/shells. Its also thicker so I would say that it probably takes more resin i.e. making a board heavier.

No offense to square because I have nothing against them at all..I'm just replying to your quote...a square nose and tail isn't really a "skim innovation" either. People have been putting "squash" or "square" tails on boards for a long long time....Exile has offered them for as long as I can remember.

Anyways all I was trying to do was get some feedback on our boards, and also offer up a little piece of advice which was kevlar's wack...That's all

[Skim4Lfe1988]

Oh don't worry I don't take much to heart on here....The question wasn't really biased in my opinion. I work at Exile, and if someone is going with another company I'd like to hear why even if that doesn't stop them because it can help us in the future to make a better product...Sometimes negative feedback is more important than positive..Maybe he just wants to try something different..Its fine either way. I didn't say you shouldn't get a different companies board...now that would be biased....I did say that he shouldn't get kevlar but I would say that whether he was looking into Zap, Vic, Apex, or any other manufacturer....
by any means I am not trying to cause any problems just advice on when and where to ask questions... the respondent in this case would be afraid to either answer in favor or against your company and its products making the question bias because you represent the product you are asking about. You working for Exile is the very reason why this question can be considered bias. However if you were an outside agency that did not represent the company of the product you are asking about, the respondent is neither obligated to answer for or against the product. Its not bias in your question, but from you asking the question the answer would be considered "respondent bias". No worries hank, I have a BA/MA in Counseling Psychology so that kind of influences this. If you want feedback, I would have an outside agency do a survey for you so you don't come upon respondent bias that could have happened from a response to this question from the person who asked it. ie. you.

Good information is key to making a better product correct? Decreasing the amount of respondent bias would allow you to make a better product, resulting from better information that comes from a survey drawn by an outside agency. The information the outside agency receives cuts out any respondent bias leaving you with raw information that allows you to make a better decision on how to increase the value(performance) out of your product.

(ex. Put together a blank board with no logo 3/4 standard hybrid or pro or both, have one of your friends that doesn't represent the company give it to a bunch of pro's from different companies(or just some random experienced riders, and some random novice riders) and see how they like it and what they would improve on it.)
technically, this is how product questions should be handled.

Sorry, I just have too much time on my hands. just trying to give you some insight on how to make things work better for the company.

[sealy]

rebuttle...

from what i rode and experienced...kevlar...everyone gots an opinon on it. honestly...it is a different type of material, like e-glass or s-glass...either stiffness or flex. kevlar to me is good on the fact that it takes a beating. ...dont miss qoute me...ROCKS, its the enemy and people will say why not skim where theere are no rocks...some people are not that fortunate to have your conditions. but it runs over rocks like the hulk no problem. not one crack, deep scratch or anything...just nothing...ill take a picture of the bottom if people really dont believe me...

carbon fiber..since its the topline material...what can you say other than it is light weight and strong, but once it is cracked...its cracked...and i have seen cracks on carbon boards from one rock, land on a rock...or board slide over a rock(haha)..dont get me wrong carbon is great(probably my next board is gonna be)..but there are cons..nothing is a PERFECT material..cause nothing is perfect...

weight...my square is a little heavier than what it was when gave to me, because it has ran over rocks, crashed into walls, bolders, nose smashed into a rock, rails smashed...and still holds up like a champ..maybe a little water logged now, but still rips like a champ...planes out like any other..people who have seen this sqaure or used it can verify... it is an old material but every material has different purposes and pros and cons...sometimes your cons can be someone elses pros. some boards are made half carbon..more flex, some people can argue that a stiff board isnt always great, and some will differ about flex.

why do car companies still make inline 4s/6s or desiel..motorcycles carbed or fuel injected, round wheelie bar or rectangle, no handbrake vs handbrake, single vs double caliper....there is still a purpose for them...pros and cons...

its innovative because people are buying them (not just locals) and loving them...and they are different and ride different from most of the boards..the rails are different on the sqaure, only seen two other board companies with those rails and those are up north.

my .04 cents ...

[zeus]

filabuster

[Skim4Lfe1988]

filabuster

only if you are un- aware of my intention. I'm not trying to waste anyone's time. This is positive feedback

[zeus]

only if you watched its always sunny you would understand it was my attemp at being intelligent

[nick_sd]

only if you watched its always sunny you would understand it was my attemp at being intelligent

dont worry i understood it. haha +1

[selvaskim]

No offense to square because I have nothing against them at all..I'm just replying to your quote...a square nose and tail isn't really a "skim innovation" either. People have been putting "squash" or "square" tails on boards for a long long time....Exile has offered them for as long as I can remember.

Anyways all I was trying to do was get some feedback on our boards, and also offer up a little piece of advice which was kevlar's wack...That's all

you are such a hater dude. on exiles payroll and claiming you have nothing against square skimboards?

your "little piece of advice" was obviously taking a swipe at square. you offer no evidence to support your claim that kevlar is "wack" (and please don't reply with some long ass response from peulso about the 'physics' of kevlar yadda yadda yadda)

i've ridden a kevlar walzer which held up fantastic after a couple years of hard use. i have friends that ride kevlar squares and love them. those kevlar boards didn't snap after a month of use, 5 months of use or even years of use.

you are hating on kevlar because square makes kevlar boards and you are trying to diminish their status as a legitimate skimboard builder. plain and simple. keep your biased and unsubstantiated claims to yourself, hater. :)

[ELY89]

you are such a hater dude. on exiles payroll and claiming you have nothing against square skimboards?

your "little piece of advice" was obviously taking a swipe at square. you offer no evidence to support your claim that kevlar is "wack" (and please don't reply with some long ass response from peulso about the 'physics' of kevlar yadda yadda yadda)

i've ridden a kevlar walzer which held up fantastic after a couple years of hard use. i have friends that ride kevlar squares and love them. those kevlar boards didn't snap after a month of use, 5 months of use or even years of use.

you are hating on kevlar because square makes kevlar boards and you are trying to diminish their status as a legitimate skimboard builder. plain and simple. keep your biased and unsubstantiated claims to yourself, hater. :)

http://stevesword.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/pwned-facekick.jpg

[SOUFLaskima]

you are such a hater dude. on exiles payroll and claiming you have nothing against square skimboards?

your "little piece of advice" was obviously taking a swipe at square. you offer no evidence to support your claim that kevlar is "wack" (and please don't reply with some long ass response from peulso about the 'physics' of kevlar yadda yadda yadda)

i've ridden a kevlar walzer which held up fantastic after a couple years of hard use. i have friends that ride kevlar squares and love them. those kevlar boards didn't snap after a month of use, 5 months of use or even years of use.

you are hating on kevlar because square makes kevlar boards and you are trying to diminish their status as a legitimate skimboard builder. plain and simple. keep your biased and unsubstantiated claims to yourself, hater. :)

Gawdsh, shut up. the SOMBs are for voicing your oppinion, giving your ideas, trolling, the progression of skimboarding, random post, etc.

Who are you to say what we can and can't think?

If he thinks Kevlar is wack then good for him
you say that there is no evidence that Kevlar is "wack" then say not to post something about the physics of Kevlar which is the evidence as to weather Kevlar is wack or not so that remark was pointless and brings this arguements nowhere

besides, why the hell do you care

[RexSkimmer]

i have yet to see any evidence of why kevlar is not top quality. so far it's only been talk

[Skim4Lfe1988]

i rode a kevlar square last week. Its not a bad board, just too heavy for me. Not that I cant carry it, I just prefer my carbon.

PS. I revoked my claim from my last post

[David Safradin]

Kevlar is brittle so I wouldn't ride it over rocks/shells. Its also thicker so I would say that it probably takes more resin i.e. making a board heavier.

No offense to square because I have nothing against them at all..I'm just replying to your quote...a square nose and tail isn't really a "skim innovation" either. People have been putting "squash" or "square" tails on boards for a long long time....Exile has offered them for as long as I can remember.

Anyways all I was trying to do was get some feedback on our boards, and also offer up a little piece of advice which was kevlar's wack...That's all

Thats abunch of bs. Other than being head of sales, what can you offer in terms of knowledge about Kevlar in particular or even any other material / construction? Tests? Anything, other than kissing Aaron's ass? I'd love to hear it. Also, dont the posts about Kevlar sboards on this site from numerous users say enough to prove the legitimacy and durability of the material enough to satisfy your unfounded facts about it? Have you even tried searching for it?

It seems you are trying to dismiss Kevlar as some kind of bullshit gimic..Is that because Exile doesnt use Kevlar in skimboards? Is it upsetting that Square Skimboards is even mentioned on here because you guys are being compared to Square? I could easily fair without offering Kevlar. It would be less costly to produce because I wouldnt have to stock an extra material nor the specialty shears, and we wouldnt have to spend the extra labor in the production process in producing a kevlar board when we can spend less on materials and labor for E glass and carbon. (IMO)

I love Exile, in relation to what they offer for skimboarding in general, but it seems like some of their theories are usually unfounded about the kevlarbeing used in skimboards and ther doesnt seem to be much truth behind what they say about Square and Kevlar. I am not saying were better, just expressing my view on Kevlar. Exile will always be bigger and sell more boards, but i am content on providing a different board than what other companies can offer. Not because it's "cool", but it seems no other high end board producer is doing so.

No one said a square nose and tail was an innovation. you brought it up for your own reasons to discredit me, perhaps.

I cant help but wonder why we are criticized for using Kevlar in skimboards. Its water resistant. abrasion resistant, and puncture resistant (when laminated). and lighter than E glass. Victoria used to offer it before they started using carbon. Concept still uses it. Baker still uses it. Apex has used it in their rails for durability. Walzer has made a bunch of Kevlar skimboards. Boeing Jets use it. Military uses it also for their standard helmet. Nascar and other race cars use it for the reason that we use it for skimboards; impact resistance. ..Not to say Carbon isnt stronger. It is offered it as top of the line in Square, and most companies do offer it as top of the line. i'm just defending Kevlar as being a legitimate material for use in skimboards. i was thinking about giving the material up because it is one less material I have to stock, thus being easier for me to let go of the material, if it werent for the number of people supporting it. It would easily be "easier" for me to do away with. That has me wondering. Should I?

[Utah]

If any of you would do some searching, you would all see that this Kevler topic has come up numorous times in the past. It is far from "new" in the skimboard world... In fact, if I recall correctly, there was quite a good thread years ago, where there were a lot of board builders (Aaron, Anton, some others I can't recal) discussing the pros and cons of it... The biggest cons I recall from the discussion was the amount of resign that kevler absorbs, thus making a heavier board. And the fact that it is more brittle than carbon (note that resisting punctures is not the same thing as being brittle).

Bottom line though, as an outsider, I didn't view Hanks post as biased in the least bit. It sounded to me like he legitimately wanted to know why the user was wanting to switch companies (more than likely to see if it is a reason that Exile can prevent in the future). Nothing wrong with that. Companies around the world do that daily!!!

Secondly, any board manufacture can start making kevler boards if they felt it was necessary. I highly doubt that Exile would do so simply to recapture the "lost" market share. From what I read in the original kevlar post years ago, Exile has their reasons for not considering kevlar a suitable material in the skim world. If another company feels differently, so be it, let the market place sort it out...

[Anton]

random thoughts (and facts):

kelvar is not brittle -- in fact, it's the opposite of brittle. It just bends and bends and bends and....

kevlar is not water resistant -- it's hygroscopic. It likes water.

Taking cue from past and present manufactureres and their methods is never a good idea. Just look at surfboard builders -- that was like 40 years of the blind leading the blind...

Beoing has very intelligent composites engineers on staff. They probably know how, why, and what they are doing with their Kevlar. They don't, however, wrap waves.

Nascar probably uses kevlar to keep body panels from shattering into a gazillion pieces when a car smashes into a wall, since it's very hard to physically sever the fibers. (speculation) The resin matrix completely shatters, while the fibers stands a chance of "keeping the pieces together". Nonetheless, it's still broken. They also don't wrap...

If number of posts from Skimonline members ever substantiated anything, we are all in big, big trouble.

I like to point out misinformation -- I do not mean to insult or pick on anyone directly. I'm very passionate about engineering, materials science, and manufacturing, and think people deserve to know the facts -- unbiased and un-hyped. Manufacturers from ALL board sports have done an excellent job at generating buzz, hype, and b.s. about the materials they use.

Kevlar is abrasion resistant, but so is a solid epoxy mixture of medium-modulus resin, graphite powder, coloidal silica, and milled glass fiber...crap, I've said too much...

I also get bored debating the pros and cons of kevlar. I'm not saying it's horrible, I just don't see the need to use it, so I don't use it.

[Aaron Peluso]

Thats exactly why they use it in race cars Anton. I used to work with a guy who worked composites for Nissan's race team and it was inserted into the laminate only as a safety measure to hold the fractured laminate together and keep dangerous composite shards from flying everywhere in a crash. Its only purpose was safety in a laminate failure circumstance.

I also know from direct experience that it is used the same way in light aircraft.

As for David... thats a lot of anger over a kind of fabric. You want to use Kevlar go right ahead... My criticism of the material in skimboards existed long before your company and will likely still be there long after your company and maybe my company move on. I decided in my own mind that kevlar sucked in skimboards back in 1992 and have seen countless reinforcing examples confirming my opinion since. It has nothing to do with you.

Hank had it way wrong in saying that Kevlar is brittle... but it was only a misunderstanding of what he has heard from Chia or I countless times before, not any kind of direct attack/subversion. Chill out.

[heavyheavylowlow]

I work at Exile, and if someone is going with another company I'd like to hear why even if that doesn't stop them because it can help us in the future to make a better product...Sometimes negative feedback is more important than positive..

I switched because the price of Exiles are way too much for me. Otherwise, I woulda probably bought another Exile.

[NStraus]

I've noticed in the last few months board companies/there employees have been have been taking a lot of swipes at each other, or at least saying things you know they wouldn't to each other face. Makes skimboarding look sooo good.

[Boom]

I dont know much about that there fancy material ya'll keep arguing over like its the last piece of gator tail on the dinner table but here at zap skamboards we use pig skin and coon hides. Not because its gooder or nothin but because we hunt lots of racoons and hogs so theres lots of that stuff laying around. Ma gets mad if we's waste stuff. heck we once made some boards outa abuncha dead armadillas that jackson collected on the way to work one day. they didnt smell to good but they was strong!

[Jim Gordon]

Boom, are you sure you're not from Oregon too?

[ELY89]

haha that question sounds a little bias... kevlar is a newly popular board material. I personally have never seen anyone riding a kevlar board. Imo, if you skim, it is best not to go to beaches with a lot of rocks anyway. I am pretty sure that is what the kevlar is "made" for, to ride over rocks/shells (at least from what I've heard). Hank, people are picking up squares because "they look cool" "they float good" etc.(im getting these quotes from users not personal) I'm sure a similar sized board with the same thickness from exile or square would float equally as good however the "square" shaped nose and tail board is skim innovation, people are drawn to that. I see a trend happening where Square and Exile will be the two top board companies for the next year at least. (the shape of squares boards being the main source of their popularity at the moment, Exile has been on top for a while). Other than that, all the materials going into making the boards are fairly similar, its just the shape. I'm sure if Exile came out with a board similar to squares design and called it a square board and got a patent on it, people would be doing the same thing and buying your boards. Basically, I don't think it matters who makes it, its just the shape of the board that people are attracted to. People will always be buying Exiles until the end of time. no worries

this is all my personal opinion so don't take it to heart.

I know what your saying. Right now, I ride a Zap Large Wedge. I always hear from alot of people that it's a crap board but honestly, it isn't that bad. I been riding it for about 4 months now and it's pretty good in my opinion. Though, I haven't ridden anything else but my Zap L. Wedge so maybe I'll change my mind about it when I do. BUt, I been looking to get into a square because mainly, I'd like to try a different shape. Plus, Kevlar seems pretty reliable because around my way, there's shells and rocks at times. Again, it's just about where my budget is at. I would love to try Exile and give it a run because I've always heard good stuff about them, but like you said, it's the shape and style of it, that draws my attention. I'd like to try something different and see how well it performs. There's just a lot of debate on here between Exile and Square and it's just all personal preference. Again, I've never ridden an Exile or whatnot, so I wouldn't know. But looking into a square, it does look different and it does make me curious. I've heard tons of great feedback from people who own it, so it seems to me that it's pretty dope. I don't know, we'll see, I'm ordering mines in the weeks to come.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

I know what your saying. Right now, I ride a Zap Large Wedge. I always hear from alot of people that it's a crap board but honestly, it isn't that bad. I been riding it for about 4 months now and it's pretty good in my opinion. Though, I haven't ridden anything else but my Zap L. Wedge so maybe I'll change my mind about it when I do. BUt, I been looking to get into a square because mainly, I'd like to try a different shape. Plus, Kevlar seems pretty reliable because around my way, there's shells and rocks at times. Again, it's just about where my budget is at. I would love to try Exile and give it a run because I've always heard good stuff about them, but like you said, it's the shape and style of it, that draws my attention. I'd like to try something different and see how well it performs. There's just a lot of debate on here between Exile and Square and it's just all personal preference. Again, I've never ridden an Exile or whatnot, so I wouldn't know. But looking into a square, it does look different and it does make me curious. I've heard tons of great feedback from people who own it, so it seems to me that it's pretty dope. I don't know, we'll see, I'm ordering mines in the weeks to come.

ill let you know about the square. Mine is coming in next week. If your zap is a little heavy and you like the weight to it i'd say go for the kevlar but I personally went for carbon just because I've been riding carbon boards for the past 5 years and I like the feel of them and how light they are. Exile is not bad at all. I have a Large 5/8 Exile proshape carbon and I like it a lot, I think it may be a tad big for me because its harder to turn. but its definately a fun board to ride. It has a 2in rocker so its easy to get out on those big conditions but I dropped the rocker 1/2 inch on the square so hopefully its a little faster out on the water.

Then again, I have heard that Exile makes a squash tail, however have never seen anyone with one. anywhere. If you ride well on your zap with the regular shape, I would say possibly go for the exile but I've been using my buddies square and it feels like it pops me back up onto the wave and helps me get back into the line better after a big wrap, but that may just be from the difference in thickness. Not sure. The squash tail allows me to sort of slide out on a wrap making it easier for me to get back into the wave quicker rather than having to do a turn on the rail and losing speed. The square also has sharp rails too that allow you to turn on the rail as well as sliding out so whatever your riding style is for wrapping. I just think the squash tail is an advantage in smaller conditions. It may not be so great in large liners like the wedge, or west street.. Idk(waiting to try that out closer to oktoberfest) in laguna/newport area.

hope this helps a bit with the selection

my best advice for you is... there has got to be someone you skim with or that skims at the same spots that you do that rides an Exile. Everyone and there mother have an exile, so you should be able to get someone to let you try one out. That's the only way I would use my money to buy a different board is if I liked the board when I got to test it out. I would say try to stay away with experimenting with your hard earned money until your CEO or something because if you do get one and you hate it, you wont want to ride it.

[ankle biter]

I switched because the price of Exiles are way too much for me. Otherwise, I woulda probably bought another Exile. Thats true,i cant afford a board thats $500,same goes for grapes,to pricey,with the economy my family is gettin it hard.ive been riding other people's boards for atleast half a year.hence,cheaper boards would be way more in my favor,and can i ask why lets say a carbon Apex against a carbon Exile is cheaper? just curious.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

can i ask why lets say a carbon Apex against a carbon Exile is cheaper? just curious.

Thats an easy question. Exile is the most popular skimboard manufacturer in the world. Exile Skimboarding Co. has an EXTREMELY HIGH product demand, therefore they can afford to charge more for their product, thus increasing profits and creating a larger company that can give more back to the sport. As long as Exile's popularity is this way, they have the power to increase the price of their boards even more because they know people will buy them because they are who they are. As long as Exile remains humble about their popularity and presence in the skimboarding world, they will remain top dog over the rest.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

So that boils down to Exile being hype?

what do you mean by hype?

[ankle biter]

Thats an easy question. Exile is the most popular skimboard manufacturer in the world. Exile Skimboarding Co. has an EXTREMELY HIGH product demand, therefore they can afford to charge more for their product, thus increasing profits and creating a larger company that can give more back to the sport. As long as Exile's popularity is this way, they have the power to increase the price of their boards even more because they know people will buy them because they are who they are. As long as Exile remains humble about their popularity and presence in the skimboarding world, they will remain top dog over the rest.

trueee,but i think if they lowered the price a bit like lets say $50,more people would probably be willing to give a lil more buck for bang....

[Shawn Kenny]

I dont know much about that there fancy material ya'll keep arguing over like its the last piece of gator tail on the dinner table but here at zap skamboards we use pig skin and coon hides. Not because its gooder or nothin but because we hunt lots of racoons and hogs so theres lots of that stuff laying around. Ma gets mad if we's waste stuff. heck we once made some boards outa abuncha dead armadillas that jackson collected on the way to work one day. they didnt smell to good but they was strong!

finanly, some man was talkin my talk, so me can undastand. i fond a goood mud bog wanna dogg the truckk to it?? it deap rell deap get my truck nice and mudy

[Skim4Lfe1988]

if you look at the broad aspect of top of the line "carbon" board sales. exiles prices are only about a $50 average increase over most manufacturers. so paying more for the growth of the sport might be a good or bad thing in different peoples perspectives. if you want more info read my review under "complaints on exiles board prices" in the skimboarding discussion thread

[ankle biter]

if you look at the broad aspect of top of the line "carbon" board sales. exiles prices are only about a $50 average increase over most manufacturers. so paying more for the growth of the sport might be a good thing. if you want more info read my review under "complaints on exiles board prices" in the skimboarding discussion thread

i didnt mean to complain and its awesome they promote skimming so much and are pretty much at the fore front of it....im just sayin im to damn poor to afford anything :p.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

i didnt mean to complain and its awesome they promote skimming so much and are pretty much at the fore front of it....im just sayin im to damn poor to afford anything :p.

well thats the problem during this time. It wont be like this forever though. and I didnt think you were complaining. The point is, if you really have your heart set on an exile, dont settle for the immediate gratification of another company because you wont be happy in the long run. Save up some money, quit skimming for a bit and dont be satisfied with something that you didn't initially want. If you are up in the air between companies, thats another story. If you REALLY want an exile. get an exile. If you REALLY want a square, get a square. If you REALLY want a vic get a vic. The point is If you are not sure, don't worry about it. Get what you can afford. There are PLENTY of companies out there that make VERY GOOD boards . Ex. square, apex, J gordon, Victoria, Zap, slotstik, grape, syndrome to name a few

[ankle biter]

well thats the problem during this time. It wont be like this forever though. and I didnt think you were complaining. The point is, if you really have your heart set on an exile, dont settle for the immediate gratification of another company because you wont be happy in the long run. Save up some money, quit skimming for a bit and dont be satisfied with something that you didn't initially want. If you are up in the air between companies, thats another story. If you REALLY want an exile. get an exile. If you are not sure, don't worry about it. Get what you can afford. There are PLENTY of companies out there that make VERY GOOD boards . Ex. square, apex, J gordon, Victoria, Zap, slotstik, grape, syndrome to name a few I gotcha an i'd rather not quit skimming,an by the time it took me to save up my money for a new board the recession is gonna be long gone.But thanks for the advice

[ELY89]

well thats the problem during this time. It wont be like this forever though. and I didnt think you were complaining. The point is, if you really have your heart set on an exile, dont settle for the immediate gratification of another company because you wont be happy in the long run. Save up some money, quit skimming for a bit and dont be satisfied with something that you didn't initially want. If you are up in the air between companies, thats another story. If you REALLY want an exile. get an exile. If you REALLY want a square, get a square. If you REALLY want a vic get a vic. The point is If you are not sure, don't worry about it. Get what you can afford. There are PLENTY of companies out there that make VERY GOOD boards . Ex. square, apex, J gordon, Victoria, Zap, slotstik, grape, syndrome to name a few

Yeah because really, It's a cross between the board's material and in this case, square. For example, before I even came across a Square, I was looking into getting a Carbon board. So I was looking at ZAP Carbon Comp which was at a reasonable price range for me. Then I was looking at SOL Carbon Vac which was was a little bit cheaper than ZAP's carbon. But move onto a board such as Exile's, the price jump between their carbon Board as well as the others, made me squint a lil bit. Again, I've never ridden any other board but my Zap L. Wedge. From someone's experience within various board Manufactures that make carbon boards, it all comes down to personal preference. Maybe someone prefers to ride Victoria rather than Slostik (for example). For me, I just need a board that will fit into my budget. Question is, why another skimboard companies that make Carbon boards, have higher prices on their boards than others? Maybe a Apex Carbon rides just as well as a Exile Carbon, but for the price between the 2 & being on a budget, who can really argue if one board is better than the other, ya kno? But in this case, Square offers the choice between E-glass, Kevlar & Carbon. I'd want to do Carbon, especially for the price that it's offered, but Kevlar has more of my interest mainly because of the material. I've already had to repair my board's bottom from some crude gashes from submerged rocks. So right now, my board's a lil water logged and feels heavier than when I first bought it. But like you said, I don't have the money to experiment with boards. And honestly, I don't get up with a lot of people down my way that skim. But at the current moment, I'd prefer a board that fits my budget and will last for a good amount of time. And for the time being, save up money for possibly, a better board.

[heavyheavylowlow]

well thats the problem during this time. It wont be like this forever though. and I didnt think you were complaining. The point is, if you really have your heart set on an exile, dont settle for the immediate gratification of another company because you wont be happy in the long run. Save up some money, quit skimming for a bit and dont be satisfied with something that you didn't initially want. If you are up in the air between companies, thats another story. If you REALLY want an exile. get an exile. If you REALLY want a square, get a square. If you REALLY want a vic get a vic. The point is If you are not sure, don't worry about it. Get what you can afford. There are PLENTY of companies out there that make VERY GOOD boards . Ex. square, apex, J gordon, Victoria, Zap, slotstik, grape, syndrome to name a few

well i actually like the other company i switched too just as much as exile.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

well i actually like the other company i switched too just as much as exile.

and no one is stopping you. I liked my slotstik as much as I like my exile and I may like my square as much as I like both. Idk. its not about liking the actual company though, its how much you like their product.

[heavyheavylowlow]

i am referring to the product

[Skim4Lfe1988]

ok. thanks for the clarification.

[Wildeman]

Kevlar is extremely responsive and strong. It does get stress marks, but so do most materials after you beat them for a while. The kevlar is showing no signs of damage from the the beaches, which are often riddled with rocks. Welcome to Canada...

And its an akwa industries board...if anyone cares

[iriphardskimmin]

uhhh is it just me or does every board thread end up talking about exiles?

[Skim4Lfe1988]

uhhh is it just me or does every board thread end up talking about exiles?

if you read through the thread, most of these types of threads have something to do with switching from exile to another company, or that someone is up in the air between another company and exile.

[RexSkimmer]

also SOMB faps to exiles

[alexM.]

Kevlar is not a wack material. it is a really durable & strong. My Square has taken numerous hits rocks on the botttom and rails and is still holding up just as good as good or better than my other boards (vic, exile). It it pretty stupid for people to talk down on it when some/most people have not even tried it on a board before. It is not a dead weight board at all either, it is slightly heavier than a carbon board, but you can barely even notice it. (i actually prefer it because when theres wind, your board doesn't go flying). I have handled the board from knee high to head high waves and it preforms really well in all of them. So before you start hating on it, try it for yourself.

[GnipGnop]

Kevlar is not wack, but it's strength only really comes into play when it is layered. Bulletproof vests have multiple layers of it. Yes it's hard to cut through, but that is before it is glassed over. After glassing its more similar to carbon. And if it's similar to carbon with the tradeoffs being small, it makes more sense to get a carbon. It's not that kevlar is bad, just that there isn't really much point to it. If there was, wouldn't more board companies be using it?

[Aaron Peluso]

Thats an easy question. Exile is the most popular skimboard manufacturer in the world. Exile Skimboarding Co. has an EXTREMELY HIGH product demand, therefore they can afford to charge more for their product, thus increasing profits and creating a larger company that can give more back to the sport. As long as Exile's popularity is this way, they have the power to increase the price of their boards even more because they know people will buy them because they are who they are. As long as Exile remains humble about their popularity and presence in the skimboarding world, they will remain top dog over the rest.

This is absolute crap. I think you have good intentions in trying to clarify some things, but you do not know what you are talking about. You presume that your answers are correct withou knowing the facts.

As I have explained before, Exile retail prices have been determined by a very simple margin calculation that has been the almost completely unchanged since 2002. Price fluctuations both up and down have always been due solely to fluctuations in the cost of labor and materials. Period. Demand has never come into play with pricing. Period.

Exile uses an epoxy formulation which I am quite confident that no one else uses in skimboarding that costs twice as much as 'regular' epoxy, and up to 5 times as much as "cheap" epoxy. We use the highest quality materials throughout the product and dont compromise anywhere. Additionally we add a few steps in the manufacturing process which I have reason to believe everyone else skips or doesnt know about. Takes a little extra time, but we believe its well worth it.

Most importantly exile supports a wholesale sales model that many newer companies do not. Our actual wholesale sales price (price to shops) is FAR below the prices you see on a square or apex (for example). i.e. we make a lot less money per board sold.

However we believe this retail sales model is by far the better route for skimboarding to take as an industry. Skimboarding needs more exposure in just about every way. A retail presence for skimboards is a big part of that, with people being introduced to skimboards even when they are not looking for them. Shop sponsors for local riders and events are a huge part of that (second biggest sponsorship group in the sport). And hopefully down the line, shops, which buy all the big surf co. brands, will see skimboarding as an important part of their business, and support brands that support skimboarding. It is probably the only way skimboarding could ever get support from those large surf brands, if the shop owners (i.e.their customers) say they want it.

For all those reasons, and many more we feel the wholesale model is by far the best, and hence support it, even though right now it probably costs us money do do so.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

In the future when someone asks a question like that please dont speak on the issue as if you know something about it. You seem like you know and understand quite a bit, which is commendable. But you are a long way from knowing enough to speak for us.

[David Safradin]

Thats exactly why they use it in race cars Anton. I used to work with a guy who worked composites for Nissan's race team and it was inserted into the laminate only as a safety measure to hold the fractured laminate together and keep dangerous composite shards from flying everywhere in a crash. Its only purpose was safety in a laminate failure circumstance.

I also know from direct experience that it is used the same way in light aircraft.

As for David... thats a lot of anger over a kind of fabric. You want to use Kevlar go right ahead... My criticism of the material in skimboards existed long before your company and will likely still be there long after your company and maybe my company move on. I decided in my own mind that kevlar sucked in skimboards back in 1992 and have seen countless reinforcing examples confirming my opinion since. It has nothing to do with you.

Hank had it way wrong in saying that Kevlar is brittle... but it was only a misunderstanding of what he has heard from Chia or I countless times before, not any kind of direct attack/subversion. Chill out.

Thats great,

I'm chill about it. Just really curious why you guys attack it all the time. You know I support your company...What is your experience in working with Kevlar? You keep telling us all that its "just" for something other than the durability of a board. Before, you tried to claim it was for lower cost of a material, but thats definitely not the case with it being almost 4 times the price of E glass. I would gladly dissmiss it as "unsuitable" for a material used in a skimboard if I could. it would probably make my process more streamline and easier as well, cutting material costs. I would be happy to give it up. Doesnt matter a whole lot since I make double carbon boards as well.

Ive been testing / making Kevlar boards for almost 6 years. Ive found it works pretty good overall, and there are a singificant amount of people riding Kevlar boards with good results. i can say they have been proven in the field. Not just my brand, but others too. i dont see why you are completely blind to this. Yes, a few ounces heavier than a carbon board, but not that much. Also, its def harder to produce than all of the other standard materials. Ii can totally see why you and the other top manufacturers would rather not use it, but from my "direct" experience with testing it, I cant see why one would dismiss it as as a gimic or "whack". I'm also not as hard headed to completely disagree with you on because Chia and you seem to know a lot when it comes to manufacturing skimboards so unless you can give me some convincing evidence of your finds (other than speculation) I will continue to use it. its physical properties are pretty ok as far as I'm concerned.

[David Safradin]

This is absolute crap. I think you have good intentions in trying to clarify some things, but you do not know what you are talking about. You presume that your answers are correct withou knowing the facts.

Exile uses an epoxy formulation which I am quite confident that no one else uses in skimboarding that costs twice as much as 'regular' epoxy, and up to 5 times as much as "cheap" epoxy. We use the highest quality materials throughout the product and dont compromise anywhere. Additionally we add a few steps in the manufacturing process which I have reason to believe everyone else skips or doesnt know about. Takes a little extra time, but we believe its well worth it.

Most importantly exile supports a wholesale sales model that many newer companies do not. Our actual wholesale sales price (price to shops) is FAR below the prices you see on a square or apex (for example). i.e. we make a lot less money per board sold. If anyone is making less profit per board, its definitely not Exile.


Not even close...Square's wholesale prices to shops, as well as retail , is lower than Exiles by a significant amount. Its because we just make skimboards on demand, dont have many employees (mostly just me), dont have extraodinary media and advertising as your company. its pretty simple actually. i have way less overhead while maintaining a very similar manufacturing process. I also use an epoxy about 5 times more expensive than regular epoxy, use high grade materials, and have a time consuming and labor intensive process. It doesnt mean I have to charge as much as you guys for carbon skimboards. I do agree that Exiles prices are in line for what the amount of costs for them are though. Its a matter of sustaining the business with higher costs.

[Aaron Peluso]

I have owned two kevlar boards and seen no less than 20 become trash due to water absorption. First hand.

Additionally, the properties of kevlar do not have any benefit in a skimboard that I can see, other than marketing. I have studied the numbers, talked to experts, and experimented with the material. All of that experience leads me to believe that even if it didn't have any absorption problems, its still not the right material for use in a skimboard.

There are far more cost effective and better ways to increase bottom durability while adding 'a couple ounces'. Unfortunately they dont associate the board with bullet proofedness in the mind of the customer, they just make the board tougher without the potential detriment of absorption, which can never be completely mitigated with kevlar. Unfortunately, most of the customers who think they are buying something bullet proof are sorely disappointed in the end... thats what I have noticed time after time...

I have seen no less than 5 companies hang their hat on kevlar only to have it tarnish their brand in the end as problems inevitably surface. All of them claimed that it worked fine too. Then a couple years down the line problems began to surface and the material suddenly disappeared from the lineup...

Maybe you got it all figured out, maybe not. I cant claim to say that you dont know jack... I can only tell you what my experience has shown. I have seen people try and use the stuff in skimboards since the mid 80's and it has never turned out positive in the end. If six years from now people are praising your kevlar boards and the best thing since sliced bread, I will pat you on the back and buy you a beer. Until then, I am gonna go with what I have seen first hand...

[Aaron Peluso]

Not even close...Square's wholesale prices to shops, as well as retail , is lower than Exiles by a significant amount. Its because we just make skimboards on demand, dont have many employees (mostly just me), dont have extraodinary media and advertising as your company. its pretty simple actually. i have way less overhead while maintaining a very similar manufacturing process. I also use an epoxy about 5 times more expensive than regular epoxy, use high grade materials, and have a time consuming and labor intensive process. It doesnt mean I have to charge as much as you guys for carbon skimboards. I do agree that Exiles prices are in line for what the amount of costs for them are though. Its a matter of sustaining the business.

Square is available through retailers? Who?

I forgot you make your skimboards in a garage, and yourself. That is a good cost advantage. Hopefully you will try and make a real company out of it at some point, since skimboarding needs people who are gonna push the sport not people who are here to make a quick buck working out of mom's garage (RE: other thread, you know the one).

If skimboard manufacturing devolves into a lot of garage manufacturers, skimboarding will be irreparably hurt as a sport.


Edit: I didnt mean to imply that you are in it for a quick buck... I know you love skimming... more addressing the point that I dont think skimboarding needs a bunch of dudes killing bigger companies by working out of their garages with no plan to scale nor push the sport... 'quick buck' or not I guess.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

Square is available through retailers? Who?


If EOS is considered a retailer, square skimboards are sold there. I know that because I just recently bought my pads from EOS.

[David Safradin]

wow, that was a quick reply Aaron.

Yes retailers. EOS, Skimcity, SurfRatz, Bodega Surf Shack, and Boardfreaks.com (Europe). . More on the way next year. Nothing close to you guys in comparison, but if it ,matters to you so much. I know you're wondering how I can survive with my retail pricing being so low. Its all in efficiency and low costs, Aaron. Dont hate us because Square is taking away from your potential future sales in high end skimboards. Hate us because we are "taking away" from skimboarding, like you claim. LOL...

Still no eveidence to support your claim that Kevlar sucks. Just your "experience" and a couple boards that you had. I know youve been in the game a long time and am acknowledge some of your thoughts on this though. There are over a hundred or so kevlar Square boards, which seem to do just fine with no problems of "absorbsion" I'm aware some manufacturers stopped producing Kevlar boards. Also, water absorption doesnt happen if the fabric is properly laminated, so i dont know why you bring this up for Kevlar. Carbon and Fiberglass absorb water too if not properly laminated with resin. Whats your point?

As for doing things for the sport. I think offering a high quality product for a more affordable price does a lot. It gives more people the opportunity to get a better performing and higher quality skimboard. This puts more people on better skimboards, which lets them progress faster and makes it easier for those to do better on a skimboard. How this hurts skimboarding? I have no clue.

Other things that Square does to promote the sport, is make videos, advertise while supporting Foreverskim magazine, sponsor riders, teach a kids (Bay Area mostly / LA soon) to skimboard and introduce them to locations suitable for it in the area. I admit, the house I work out of is owned by my parents, which hardly live there and spend most of the time in Europe, btw. Thats partly why my overhead is low and I can keep costs down, is because I dont have a big operation like you guys or other manufacturers. Does that ruin my reputation to work out of a garage? Perhaps, but that doesnt change the fact that I have a professional type of system and years of experience / research and a somewhat substantial amount of skimboards made. We are actually getting a shop pretty soon too if it matters a lot. I'll update that on our new website when the time comes.

I can easily raise prices to be in the range of what I contribute some info to this site, eventhough Exile (you) owns it. So does some of my riders. I contribute to Cramikskim.com. I sponser local and East coast events. Will sponsor even more next year. You can say I do a little more than just try and make a few bucks..I dont really intend to go crazy with production thogh, even in the long run, because Im not in this for making lots of money, just a passion of mine. If anyone is wondering, I actually skimboard, compete (am and pro) and have spent almost all my life on the coast, being raised in Pacifica. If anyone is trying to profit from skimboarding, its NOT me. I also work another job, but am not as fortunate as a wealthy realtor like yourself to live in a fancy place in Laguna beach and drive a fancy car (dont you have a yacht too?) and have the best everything in the world, as well, alone the best skim team and company like Exile. Not saying you dont work hard... Yeah, not tryin to make a buck at all Aaron. If I was, I would be charging regular price for double carbon epoxy skimboards, even with a low overhead, like some other smaller "garage" brands on the market.

Also, before I started Square, I bought 3 Exile boards and turned a few people to you. Even after you hated on us and claimed we were gimmicky, I went to the Exile premiere of Stimulus. I am still going to pay for the entry fee at the Oktoberfest coming up (knowing it benefits Exile in some ways) I dont mind still supporting you guys even with all the personal attacks you make. its all business to you, I know. Attacks on Apex and Square only benefit you, not skimboarding as a whole. Dont give me bullshit on how Exile and the top three of skim co's are the only ones who can benefit the "progression of the sport". I thought we already went through that crap on the other thread.

Other than me, there is also a couple of people involved in Square. A few part time workers. My family, which contributed a bunch, friends, a team of 8 riders, including 3 pros. Along with our "whack" boards theres gonna be a lot more of Square to come, so thats something you can count on. Nothing to get you worried about (because it seems like you already are, lol), but i plan on being at this for a while whether your biased views have a large effect on the skimboarding scene or not. Not going to take everything over like you seem to be, but its been 3 years for us, and counting...

[sealy]

when on top only way to go is ....down...:confused: ...


mc donalds....serving 1 million people....\][\-=+

now...carls jr, burger king, wiener SNITCH-el(sp) , wendys (99 cent bake potato), white castle, sonics(mmmmm slurpy), ohh taco bell (think outside the bun..dollar menu psshhh 79 cent 89 cent and 99 cent menu!!!!! black jack taco!!!)... :D

some good food for thought

[Jim Gordon]

OK.....here's my two cents. When I made foam skims many years ago, I used kelvar, carbon, and s-glass which I think are all good materials.....just different ( like apples and oranges). First, if I was going to buy a board for over $400 I wouldn't ride it on a beach with any rocks, I would have an old board for that. Second, I wouldn't let $50 make a difference between boards when I'm spending hundreds anyway.

I think the way it rides is 90% of what is important to me. I would try to ride as many different kinds of boards as I could before I would buy one. The bottom line is.....it doesn't matter how strong it is, if you don't like the way it rides.;)

[JoshM.]

I think part of what I'm getting from this is concern that if you are going to take part of the pie, you should contribute back to the sport proportionately.

[Aaron Peluso]

wow, that was a quick reply Aaron.

Yes retailers. EOS, Skimcity, SurfRatz, Bodega Surf Shack, and Boardfreaks.com (Europe).

EOS is a drop shipper, not retailer. I dont see your boards on skim city. Dont know about surf ratz and bodega... but even if you are selling full margin at your website prices, its clearly not a large percentage of your sales.



Aaron. Dont hate us because Square is taking away from your potential future sales in high end skimboards. Hate us because we are "taking away" from skimboarding, like you claim. LOL...


??? I dont hate you at all. I am just speaking my mind with 100% honesty... I hope thats ok with you?



Still no eveidence to support your claim that Kevlar sucks.

If seeing 22 boards turn to trash right before my eyes is no evidence, then yes, there has been no evidence.


Also, water absorption doesnt happen if the fabric is properly laminated, so i dont know why you bring this up for Kevlar. Carbon and Fiberglass absorb water too if not properly laminated with resin. Whats your point?

mmm... not true, but I will let you figure that out on your own.


As for doing things for the sport. I think offering a high quality product for a more affordable price does a lot. It gives more people the opportunity to get a better performing and higher quality skimboard. This puts more people on better skimboards, which lets them progress faster and makes it easier for those to do better on a skimboard. How this hurts skimboarding? I have no clue.

It is true that there are some benefits to cheaper higher end skims. Getting more people involved at a real level is one of them. However doing so while cannibalizing 'professional' companies sales is a real detriment. I think skimboarding needs more top to bottom professional companies who can push skimboarding in the right direction. Multiple companies able to develop real advertising budjets might just be able to launch skimboarding off the ground floor and command respect in the action sports world. I am not talking about gift certificates at contests so people can go sell them on the internet at 50 cents to the dollar. I am talking about real investment in the sport to help push it to the next level. An industry of hundreds of garage manufacturers is bound hold the sport back as a whole.

Glad you support FSM. Most of your riders arent truly good enough to deserve sponsorship and further, were customers of existing brands before square, I am glad you teach kids to skim, but dont need a mfg company to do that (would probably make more money just doing that). I didnt mean to bring up your mom's garage to demean you or your company. Exile started in my grandma's garage, almost all small companies do. My point was that I hope you intend to move outward and compete on the real playing field, rather than milk the cost competitiveness of working from Mom's garage. For the benefit of skimming.


I can easily raise prices to be in the range of what I contribute some info to this site, eventhough Exile (you) owns it. So does some of my riders. I contribute to Cramikskim.com. I sponser local and East coast events. Will sponsor even more next year. You can say I do a little more than just try and make a few bucks..

I did (try to) clarify on the quick buck issue before you responded... sorry if you missed it.



Also, before I started Square, I bought 3 Exile boards and turned a few people to you. Even after you hated on us and claimed we were gimmicky, I went to the Exile premiere of Stimulus.

Please show me where I hated on you and/or claimed you were gimmicky? I dont recall ever saying anything like that public or private. I can recall Steve and I talking on multiple occasions about how much we both think you are a cool guy. Seems like you are getting the wrong impression here. Please dont. I actually like you a lot. This is not an attack on you. This is just what I think about skimboarding. Thats all.


I am still going to pay for the entry fee at the Oktoberfest coming up (knowing it benefits Exile in some ways)

Well, I am glad you are not boycotting our event I guess. As I am sure you know all entry fee money goes back to the event/pros, and then some... so not really benefiting exile...


I dont mind still supporting you guys even with all the personal attacks you make. its all business to you,

I dont even know how to respond to that. I have never levied a personal attack agains you Dave. Ever.


I know. Attacks on Apex and Square only benefit you, not skimboarding as a whole. Dont give me bullshit on how Exile and the top three of skim co's are the only ones who can benefit the "progression of the sport". I thought we already went through that crap on the other thread.

Actually I think these discussions hurt exile because people mis-interpret the intent as an attack, as you apparently have. Is it possible to have a discussion about these topics with you, without it being an attack? If so please let me know what kind of language to use so that I dont offend you personally. I am serious. I really dont know how to explain my position more honestly and up front... and I know for a fact that my real motivations are not any kind of personal profit or gratification.


Other than me, there is also a couple of people involved in Square. A few part time workers. My family, which contributed a bunch, friends, a team of 8 riders, including 3 pros. Along with our "whack" boards theres gonna be a lot more of Square to come, so thats something you can count on. Nothing to get you worried about (because it seems like you already are, lol), but i plan on being at this for a while whether your biased views have a large effect on the skimboarding scene or not. Not going to take everything over like you seem to be, but its been 3 years for us, and counting...

So much hate. Please understand up front that this is all hate on your side man. I wish you didnt insist on it being like that...

[Aaron Peluso]

whoa.. thats long

[Chev]

WOW...

[Aaron Peluso]

Oh dave, one more thing. At the santa cruz contest a couple years ago I judged your final (after you said it was okay). You didnt win the heat/competition and I feel like you have always suspected that I scored you low out of spite or something. I just want you to know that you won that contest on my scorecard and I am not sure what the other judges were smoking.

[bb16]

Why all the hate on the garage :D Some of the best stuff is made by a guy in his garage. Also out of curiosity how long does it take for Kevlar to become waterlogged? Ive been riding my Kevlar board for a while and I have noticed no increase in weight. And I have seen a Kevlar square get run over by a car and come out absolutely fine.

[GnipGnop]

A recurring theme in all of these conversations between manufacturers is either sides becoming entwined in contextual miscommunication. The only thing people have to go on for understanding is a bunch of symbols to make the words and sentences. Aaron is giving it straight up and it admittedly does sound harsh, but if you contextualize it by reading his last posts first it isn't so bad. Seems like any serious conversation on here between people who either a:) predate the internet or b:) don't have a grasp on how communication works need a bit of a primer in terms of providing a setting or context to their tone and writing. Half of the posts are explanations, the other half are justifications.

[Jim Gordon]

Why all the hate on the garage :D Some of the best stuff is made by a guy in his garage. Also out of curiosity how long does it take for Kevlar to become waterlogged? Ive been riding my Kevlar board for a while and I have noticed no increase in weight. And I have seen a Kevlar square get run over by a car and come out absolutely fine.

I would think you would need a ding or crack to let the water in....the resin skin should be water proof.
Ran over by a car and not hurt......I would like to see that.:rolleyes:

[Anton]

Some of the best stuff is made by a guy in his garage.

Best stuff to ever come out of a garage: http://www.barrettrifles.com/home/index.aspx

[Aaron Peluso]

I would think you would need a ding or crack to let the water in....the resin skin should be water proof.

Agree.

[ELY89]

Aaron, have you had many orders on Squash tails for Exile? I have yet to come across one.

[Aaron Peluso]

Not many, no...

[ELY89]

Spot on. Oka, just curious.

[bb16]

I would think you would need a ding or crack to let the water in....the resin skin should be water proof.
Ran over by a car and not hurt......I would like to see that.:rolleyes:

Sure next time you come to santa cruz i can show you the board and the guy who's board it was, the driver, the drivers dad, and his brother all who saw it. It was on a really smooth garage floor and on a towel. And i believe the owner of the board talked to square dave about it.

[Aaron Peluso]

I have seen many boards run over with no damage. if you shape the rail of the foam we use (and many others use) you can drive over it without damage.

[bb16]

Out of curiosity has exile changed their manufacturing process in the past 3 years? My friend got a used board that was about 3 years old but hardly ridden but it is extremley weak compared to the newer exiles. Like rocks that barley scratch other boards will tear his board. while the newer exiles seem to by as tough as any board out there.

And for the record i think both squares and exiles are equally sick boards.

[MaStEr IrOc]

not to be a jerk, but this is a square thread. i dont want it to get thread jacked cause i know how that feels. bb, ask your question in a pm to andrew or something,

please no one take offense to this especially since i just came to this forum. i just hate when threads get thread jacked.

[SteveTaylor]

not to be a jerk, but this is a square thread. i dont want it to get thread jacked cause i know how that feels. bb, ask your question in a pm to andrew or something,

please no one take offense to this especially since i just came to this forum. i just hate when threads get thread jacked.

My friend you are going to hate this forum, haha. Talk about the thread jacking capital of the internet right here.

[Aaron Peluso]

Out of curiosity has exile changed their manufacturing process in the past 3 years? My friend got a used board that was about 3 years old but hardly ridden but it is extremley weak compared to the newer exiles. Like rocks that barley scratch other boards will tear his board. while the newer exiles seem to by as tough as any board out there.

And for the record i think both squares and exiles are equally sick boards.

We upgraded our epoxy a while back, but that shouldnt make a noticeable difference with that. It is possible that the resin is older and hence a little more brittle, but its more likely that your friend is running over gnarler rocks, sharper rocks, is a heavier dude... things like that.

[Jim Gordon]

We upgraded our epoxy a while back, but that shouldnt make a noticeable difference with that. It is possible that the resin is older and hence a little more brittle, but its more likely that your friend is running over gnarler rocks, sharper rocks, is a heavier dude... things like that.

Yeah, the sun makes boards brittle too.
:eek: Did I just high jack this thread?

[Jaleez]

shame on you jim gordon!! aha

[palmdale]

kevlar = tank

the kevlar isnt THAT heavy. shit u never know when u might need some bullet protection 2.
i rode a carbon 3/4. they're sick and u can get way up on the front.

[Jim Gordon]

Kevlar is light by itself but when you put resin on it, it's heavier than carbon. I think because it holds more resin than carbon. That's just a guess though.

[RexSkimmer]

i didnt mean it was heavy, what i meant was durable and puncture-resistant

[DrM08]

mine has a ding and i still cant fix it, suncure hasnt been staying on it and its getting heavy, ONLY beacause there is a ding, other wise it never took water in before that. any suggestions how to fix it?

[Aaron Peluso]

If its an epoxy board you need to use epoxy for the repair. Suncure makes an epoxy fix kit... or even $5 epoxy would be better than a polyester product. Also gotta prep the area properly and make sure its completely dry, including any moisture that has absorbed into the foam/fabric

[Will925]

While it is undeniable that exile makes extremely well made skimboards, Square is a special breed of skimboard company. i have had my square for over a year and i love it. David has always provided top notch costumer service to me as well as to everyone else i know. he has also given me advice when it came to finding new spots to skim both in california and in mexico. Its a small company like square that i will keep coming back to. im not saying that exile doesnt provide good customer support (im sure they do) but what im saying is a company like square puts a person to the process instead of just getting some board. and thats a process ill keep paying money for

[Aaron Peluso]

If you call exile and talk to steve or hank, you will have a similar experience. Exile is also a small company.

[Skim4Lfe1988]

If you call exile and talk to steve or hank, you will have a similar experience. Exile is also a small company.

Hank is trained very well in customer service. I do not know him personally so I cannot judge if he is faking his "exile" personality for the sake of the company but when I met him at the shop, he seemed like a pretty nice guy. I was basically shaking with "stoke" for getting my board. that feeling when your so excited about something that you start shaking a little bit. so +1

david is a good guy for sure. skimming with the square doods on friday

[Teddy Parker]

Holy shit guys I am so sorry I am late. My wife was being a lazy ass claiming to be sick so I had to take the kids to school this morning and then get stuck in traffic because that area is so congested ya know. Anyways, I didn't read any of the thread because it's pointless but to sum up my opinions on the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/-5uzJVkeaUI

[Logan Sabo]

Will-Eventually any company, if they make good products and is recognized, will start small and get bigger.. so by stating you will give your business to square now for those reasons.. will you stop if square grows and becomes more sucessful like exile? I see it flip flopped.. I like the small business aspect, but not every business is the same. In my case i would rather give my money to a company that is passionate about advancing and gaining credit for the sport i enjoy. whether that be by pouring money into quality movies, and videos whether than just sponsoring average joes all over.

never ridden a square, i like what i have seen and would like to see more board companies be a success and invest back into the sport. I think exile has set a good example for other companies to motivate others to do larger things for the sport.
RANT/

[Aaron Peluso]

Holy shit guys I am so sorry I am late. My wife was being a lazy ass claiming to be sick so I had to take the kids to school this morning and then get stuck in traffic because that area is so congested ya know. Anyways, I didn't read any of the thread because it's pointless but to sum up my opinions on the topic:


You have a wife?

[BART]

and school-aged kids?

[Aaron Peluso]

and a car?

[Teddy Parker]

Yeah. Well one is in preschool and the other is the baby girl that can't be left alone so...

[SteveTaylor]

Hank doesn't fake anything, he's a good ol' southern boy. If anyone has ever been treated with an ounce of disrespect from myself or Hank I would be amazed. We treat people as our friends because that's what I consider my fellow skimmers. Just clarifying that.

[Colon]

Yeah. Well one is in preschool and the other is the baby girl that can't be left alone so...
Yeah sure, and you can swim too.

[Teddy Parker]

Yeah sure, and you can swim too.

ZING! Finally this thread produces something worth reading!

[shin-n]

hahahaahaha

[$aam]

If you call exile and talk to steve or hank, you will have a similar experience. Exile is also a small company.

agreed, exile does have that straight to the consumer experience

[a_pla5tic_bag]

So I didn't really get much info on squares from this thread, I was looking maybe to get one of the carbon boards next year since they seem like a good price for a good board. So what exactly makes them so different? All I've seen so far are the rails and the tips. And maybe the tips don't even make a difference, it's like (another skiing reference) moment skis, they have square tips too, they have a a little different performance to them, but they're mostly for show. Basically, if you were to see a pair of these skis, you could easily recognize them from other brands of skis, and that was pretty much he point of square tips. Is that the case with square, or do they actually change the way it rides. And if it makes a difference, I'm in NJ.

Actually, I'll even look at the kevlar one, do they have super different qualities to them? Again if it makes any differnce (I'm sure this does) I like to skim riding waves, airing off them, and flat ground stuff.

[Jim Gordon]

Here's my view on skimboard shapes. I make my ocean skim look and ride like a surfboard. On the other hand, I make my flatland skim look and ride like a skateboard.
I don't now why David makes the ends of his boards square........but I guess if he didn't, he would have to change the name of his company.;)

[Skim4Lfe1988]

So I didn't really get much info on squares from this thread, I was looking maybe to get one of the carbon boards next year since they seem like a good price for a good board. So what exactly makes them so different? All I've seen so far are the rails and the tips. And maybe the tips don't even make a difference, it's like (another skiing reference) moment skis, they have square tips too, they have a a little different performance to them, but they're mostly for show. Basically, if you were to see a pair of these skis, you could easily recognize them from other brands of skis, and that was pretty much he point of square tips. Is that the case with square, or do they actually change the way it rides. And if it makes a difference, I'm in NJ.

Actually, I'll even look at the kevlar one, do they have super different qualities to them? Again if it makes any differnce (I'm sure this does) I like to skim riding waves, airing off them, and flat ground stuff.

the squash tail makes it easier imo to wrap off of a wave. I don't see any difference from my exiles rails to the squares rails. they are both double carbon other than the squares rails are stepped which I think is just for looks. the nose on the square is a little more blundt that is supposed to make it easier to ride switch. Square also uses a 1/4 rocker on the tail which is supposed to make it easier to wrap. All of these improvements on boards... honestly... if you cant ride, isn't going to make much difference. Like I said before, there is a guy that rides a vic foamie out where I skim that rips a lot harder than I do on my carbon boards. The kevlar is going to be a little heavier. and to my knowledge for general use, the carbon will be a little more stiff.

[RexSkimmer]

the squash tail makes it easier imo to wrap off of a wave. I don't see any difference from my exiles rails to the squares rails. they are both double carbon other than the squares rails are stepped which I think is just for looks. the nose on the square is a little more blundt that is supposed to make it easier to ride switch. Square also uses a 1/4 rocker on the tail which is supposed to make it easier to wrap. All of these improvements on boards... honestly... if you cant ride, isn't going to make much difference. Like I said before, there is a guy that rides a vic foamie out where I skim that rips a lot harder than I do on my carbon boards. The kevlar is going to be a little heavier. and to my knowledge for general use, the carbon will be a little more stiff.

squares are actually harder to wrap with, its a completely different style of riding (better for liners). exiles have sharper rails while square's are duller so it's easier to handle choppy/sloppy conditions. the blunt nose has no effect riding switch, it's the rocker. i believe it's exile that has the 1/4" tail rocker on their hybrids, square is a traditional so theres no tail rocker. there is a very noticeable different between the two, each board has their pros and cons

[alexM.]

they are not harder to wrap with. they are just different to wrap with.

[Jim Gordon]

Wow.......this thread is full of drama!

[Jim Gordon]

Here's something I just thought of, a 50" square would most likely ride like a lot larger standard type board. Because a square's shape to me looks like a reg board shape and cut the ends off making the board a lot shorter. I might be wrong.....but I would think if you ordered a square, you would want to order a shorter board than normal. Then again I might be all wrong......just thinking out loud.

[selvaskim]

they are not harder to wrap with. they are just different to wrap with.


this

[ELY89]

Here's something I just thought of, a 50" square would most likely ride like a lot larger standard type board. Because a square's shape to me looks like a reg board shape and cut the ends off making the board a lot shorter. I might be wrong.....but I would think if you ordered a square, you would want to order a shorter board than normal. Then again I might be all wrong......just thinking out loud.

I think you've might mentioned this on another thread I read awhile back..

but put it this way, I currently ride my Zap Large Wedge, which is appox. 48.5 inches in length. I weigh 129. I was lookin at the size chart and a S board for a square, which is 50". I guess a longer board would make it less easier to turn than a short one. the XS is at 47".

[NStraus]

they are not harder to wrap with. they are just different to wrap with.

different in that...it takes more effort?

To me thats like saying a 5/8 doesnt wrap better then a 3/4, the 3/4 wraps different
however from my experience the square will get you out about...12 times farther.

[alexM.]

i think i was trying to say that i got used to it. and because i'd rather get more float and have to turn harder, but that my opinion; other people might not agree.

[Jim Gordon]

I think you've might mentioned this on another thread I read awhile back..

but put it this way, I currently ride my Zap Large Wedge, which is appox. 48.5 inches in length. I weigh 129. I was lookin at the size chart and a S board for a square, which is 50". I guess a longer board would make it less easier to turn than a short one. the XS is at 47".

I don't think that was me, must have been someone else. Anyway......as a rule a larger board will turn slower. But on the other hand a board with less rocker will also turn slower too.

[Aaron Peluso]

making a board that goes further but is less manueverable is not a challenge for any company....

[Skim4Lfe1988]

i believe it's exile that has the 1/4" tail rocker on their hybrids, square is a traditional so theres no tail rocker.

do you make square boards? David says he puts a 1/4 tail rocker on every board...

[sealy]

different in that...it takes more effort?

To me thats like saying a 5/8 doesnt wrap better then a 3/4, the 3/4 wraps different
however from my experience the square will get you out about...12 times farther.


the 5/8 has a different feel...than the 3/4...like you can feel feeeeeel it

...also is more sensitive...

[Aaron Peluso]

do you make square boards? David says he puts a 1/4 tail rocker on every board...

we make custom boards and can do most anything. however if you want a board with squares exact shape... you should probably buy a square.

[ELY89]

http://www.youtube.com/v/1eIyiuj_zLI&hl=en&fs=1&

[MaStEr IrOc]

http://www.youtube.com/v/1eIyiuj_zLI&hl=en&fs=1&

that was a rectangle...

[ELY89]

that was a rectangle...

i know.

[TRiiPPiN]

thats why im gettin one. ha it was funny comin into this thread looking for some good spirited debate on the pros and cons of kevlar...little did I know that there is a war going on in the skim industry...bottom line even if they look funny theyre economical as sin between the 300 dolla pricetag and the ding resistant kevlar...respect and ill be enjoying my new square come xmas morning

[TRiiPPiN]

ight even 330 or whatever it is with kevlar its a fantastic deal compared to 380 for eglass.